anyone cared enough to share the truth of heaven and hell

[eastcoast40nc]

I just got hit by a thunderbolt from above...or a ban button. I think I'll spend the rest of my days with the other Mania rejects in forum purgatory. See ya!

[Jakester]

You know...preaching is still Spam when it comes from a newbie poster.

May the good Lord call you back to Him very soon.

[TrixieB]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/trixiebelle/Spam-God.jpg

[omicron]

fucking spammers. Although this is a new tack.

[Gentlemen Death]

You know....I think GOD just farted!:eek:

[Bill_the_Pony]

http://a616.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/60/l_3f73b059a6bd6487ed979710e45ec0d7.gif


:rolleyes:

[colmatrix]

When Paul was doing his ministry, he lived with people first and never burdened them. He gently enouraged and taught, but never judged. I definitely agree with everything this guy said, but he's got to learn that you just can't come in without so much as an introduction.

I hope he really does care for people, and I encourage him to continue witnessing. :)

[Senormac]

Yea.....I agree with colmatrix......but I also agree with Jake. This guy is a big spammer. What makes him think anyone here is going to listen to him when they don't know him from Adam. Paul also said, to the Greek I became a Greek, to the barbarian I became a barbarian, to the Jew I be a Jew. Why? Because Jesus loves us for who we are. And His message can reach us where ever we are. This guy should maybe have become a "maniac" and then someone might listen to him. :Smirk:

Where is the trust? Where is the love? Where is the relationship? Is he praying for us? or just dropping in for a shotgun blast of scriptures? All I ever get outta that senario.......is a big OUCH.

[Jakester]

Exactly, Mac.

I mean, look, I don't talk about it, but I have my own spiritual relationship, and I'd like to think that any God who claims to be an All Loving God would provide many paths to the same destination.

Look, faith is belief without proof, and many people believe different things with equal conviction. For anyone to say that he or she knows without doubt that someone else's belief or faith is utterly wrong is both egotistical and arrogant. One may have faith that what he/she believes is true, but must at the same time, be respectful of the beliefs of others, knowing that they are of equal faith in their beliefs.

[Gentlemen Death]

Exactly, Mac.

I mean, look, I don't talk about it, but I have my own spiritual relationship, and I'd like to think that any God who claims to be an All Loving God would provide many paths to the same destination.

Look, faith is belief without proof, and many people believe different things with equal conviction. For anyone to say that he or she knows without doubt that someone else's belief or faith is utterly wrong is both egotistical and arrogant. One may have faith that what he/she believes is true, but must at the same time, be respectful of the beliefs of others, knowing that they are of equal faith in their beliefs.

My thoughts exactly....I wonder if he will ever come back and try and post? :confused:

[DarkJedi]

He can't come back and so he won't come back.

[Immortal1982]

You never know Jarrod, he could come back in 3 days.... ;)

[Bill_the_Pony]

Oh, rapture! :popcorn:

[colmatrix]

Exactly, Mac.

I mean, look, I don't talk about it, but I have my own spiritual relationship, and I'd like to think that any God who claims to be an All Loving God would provide many paths to the same destination.

Look, faith is belief without proof, and many people believe different things with equal conviction. For anyone to say that he or she knows without doubt that someone else's belief or faith is utterly wrong is both egotistical and arrogant. One may have faith that what he/she believes is true, but must at the same time, be respectful of the beliefs of others, knowing that they are of equal faith in their beliefs.

Unless...the faith you believe in claims to be the only true faith. Jesus said that he was the only way to heaven, and that the path to heaven was narrow. Also, when he asks his followers to spread the gospel and proclaim his name, we should have no choice but to do so. Otherwise our faith isn't true, right? We would be compromising what we believe in. The last thing I want to do is to turn someone off to Christ, but if by proclaiming him to be the Son of God and only way to heaven turns someone off, I can't help that. I believe and know that to be true. As Christians, we aren't posturing or being conceited when we say that, but rather we are telling others in the hope that God would call them like He called us.

Here are a couple of verses that comes right after the most famous verse in the Bible...

John 3:17-18

17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I believe in all of the Bible as God's Word, and so I have to believe that all of it is true. I care for everyone here after all these years, and it is my prayer that everyone here would believe that.

[Jakester]

Yes, but I also had a political professor in college whose husband was a Muslim. He pointed out that the only way for mankind to be saved was for entire societies to live by the laws that Allah laid down in the Koran. So...if his way is the only way...and your way is the only way...gosh...that's TWO "only" ways.

Edit -- it's one thing to believe that your faith is the "one true faith." It's another thing entirely to malign those who believe equally that theirs is as well. I don't think there's anything wrong, however, with sharing your beliefs with someone else, as long as there is some level of mutual respect. I'm well aware that 'Mac, Col, and Traz (among others, I'm sure) have fairly strong beliefs, and while I don't subscribe to them, I do respect that their belief system works for them.

All right, this serious stuff is bringing me down. Kah, SHOW ME YOUR BOOBIES!

[rappites]

My way is the only way that you will get to heaven.


:wink: :Eyebrow:

[neglet]

Does it involve a stairway?

[kah]

I would bet it involves a specialized swing.

[kah]

Bill, I'm really tempted to steal that for my avatar.

[Bill_the_Pony]

By all means. :eek: :p

[rappites]

:D


I would bet it involves a specialized swing.

[Gentlemen Death]

Could it please be a tire swing!?!?!?!? :)

[MPG]

My thoughts exactly....I wonder if he will ever come back and try and post? :confused:
The easiest way to answer that is a Google search for his user name. He spammed so many forums that he probably doesn't have the time to actually be active on any message board. :D

[Senormac]

I have a question I'm curious to know whether anyone has an answer to........

How do Muslim get forgiven for their sins?

[rappites]

What makes you think that when people go to confession all is forgiven? Just because someone said so. How naive is that. I do not need to go to someone to confess my sins to and then tell me all is forgiven. Just do what you think is right and all will work out. Do upon others as you would want done upon you.


All though I would love to sit in one of those booths and listen to everyone spill their guts. Now that would be fun. :)

[Senormac]

I agree with you rapps......no man can forgive your sins. Its a completely ridiculous concept......and is just one more of the innumerable errors put forth as truth by the catholic church. The catholic church is NOT the representation of Gods ways on the earth. Its probably done more damage to the truth than any other single entity ever established. I feel for you if thats where you learned what God is all about.

The catholic church aside........that still does not answer the Muslim question.

[rappites]

I do not understand religion or the "god" thing myself. I tried to believe when I was younger. But, I came to realize that how is this possible. To beleive in one god. I know people need something to believe in.

[Al-Dog]

The basis of religion is belief. If you believe in something then that’s that. Who needs proof to confuse the issue?

If you believe that cavemen had had pet dinosaurs, then that’s the way it was and damn those paleontologist for manufacturing evidence and trying to confuse folk.

Dinosaurs ride in Noah's Ark at US creation museum (http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/by-the-book/2007/05/27/1180205075779.html)

[Gentlemen Death]

As much as I do want to beleive in some kind of.....being...Enitity....Something, I just can not force myself to....I would like to beleive there is something out there, that all of THIS is here for some reasoning or that there is an afterlife.....I just do not know if I could bring myself into believing that....It all comes back to proof....I NEED PROOF....:confused:

[colmatrix]

I agree with you rapps......no man can forgive your sins. Its a completely ridiculous concept......and is just one more of the innumerable errors put forth as truth by the catholic church. The catholic church is NOT the representation of Gods ways on the earth. Its probably done more damage to the truth than any other single entity ever established. I feel for you if thats where you learned what God is all about.

The catholic church aside........that still does not answer the Muslim question.

I agree with a lot of that...no man can forgive sins. Jesus, who is God, can. No one can live a perfect life. If I wanted to weigh the good vs. bad in my life, bad would win out. I'm just being truthful. I'm not what society would consider a bad person either. I'm a nice guy, but God said that the heart of man is wicked above all else.

People love to bash the Catholic church, with some good reason. Like I have said before, I don't follow men, but Jesus: the only man who has ever risen from the dead. He died for everyone here, and he loves every one of us. He fulfilled so many early prophecies from Scripture, it's not even funny! :) I have personally felt his love for me and the transformation he made in me.

If you ever want to know Him, just go to Him. I know it sounds strange, but it's true. He's real! Seek him out, not for your own reasons, but just to find Him.

Luke 11:9 Seek, and ye shall find.

Go to Him...personal contact with Jesus changes you forever.

[rappites]

As much as I do want to beleive in some kind of.....being...Enitity....Something, I just can not force myself to....I would like to beleive there is something out there, that all of THIS is here for some reasoning or that there is an afterlife.....I just do not know if I could bring myself into believing that....It all comes back to proof....I NEED PROOF....:confused:

I second this. I need proof too.

[Sgt. Awesome]

I'm going in the needing proof category. I'm a fairly spiritual person, but I DESPISE with a huge passion organized religion of any kind. I'm not against the congregation and community that develops in single churches but... well... Catholics, or any other denomination, or other religion.

And the Muslim question... they don't. Seriously. Muslim's are waaay hard core. The crazy ones who aren't actually Muslim absolve their sins by blowing themselves up in large crowds.

Religion having the power to affect their minds as such is all the evidence I need to say it is not beneficial to the world.

We could play a game, someone names a good thing organized religion has done, then someone else counters with something bad. The bad side will win. Religion has been fucking with people ever since it started.


Now, don't get religion confused with belief. I have nothing against belief. But when religion starts to negatively effect your moral judgement... then we (as society and the people interacting with you) have a problem.


Also, I'm open to religious debate, I like people who have that belief, but don't mind it being challenged. If someone's only point is something from the bible I'm not going to take them seriously because the bible says some fucked up shit.
If they use it as supporting evidence, or back up a point, that's ok. But using a story book (one ripe with metaphor) as the end all and be all of arguments is short-sighted and foolish.

[rappites]

Well, put.



Churches are good for small middle america towns. That allow people to make friends and get togethers. I would join a church for that reason. My son asked me today to take him to a church. I told him that we do not go. He said "why?" I had no good answer for him. I could not tell him that I do not want to get all dressed up
to go and listen to someone preach to me. I would like for him to go someday. So, someone who has the knowledge can teach him the meaning of the bible. So, someday, like me, can decide on his own what he beleives in.

[Sgt. Awesome]

I'm a... 6th generation preacher's son. Stopping with my father. He sort of ran from religion. But both his parents were deacons, his grandparents on his mothers side were deacons, both great grandparents... and so forth. But his dislike of religion was passed down to me. He discusses religion with Witnesses when they come to the door, wins every time, they flee.

Although my friend's chase them with a stick method is also quite effective.

The problem with "Church" as you see it Raps (in my mind) is that whomever teaches your son the bible will be teaching him their own interpretation of it. You can take passages to mean different things and it should be a very individual thing. Of course that would take away power from the Church (big C Church is bad little c church is good) and they don't like that, so we blindly follow their interpretation of it.

[Gentlemen Death]

I'm a... 6th generation preacher's son. Stopping with my father. He sort of ran from religion. But both his parents were deacons, his grandparents on his mothers side were deacons, both great grandparents... and so forth. But his dislike of religion was passed down to me. He discusses religion with Witnesses when they come to the door, wins every time, they flee.

Although my friend's chase them with a stick method is also quite effective.

The problem with "Church" as you see it Raps (in my mind) is that whomever teaches your son the bible will be teaching him their own interpretation of it. You can take passages to mean different things and it should be a very individual thing. Of course that would take away power from the Church (big C Church is bad little c church is good) and they don't like that, so we blindly follow their interpretation of it.

AMEN!!

[colmatrix]

I also want to add that God didn't make us for our own pleasures and interests, but that he made us to praise Him. As for proof, even people in Jesus' day that saw miracles didn't believe. It takes faith, you have to believe without seeing. Do you believe in the atmosphere? Have you ever seen it? Maybe that's a bad example, but think of the things you believe in every day without ever having seen...

Have you ever just felt empty? Like there is something missing in your life but you didn't know what? I heard once that everyone has a God-shaped vacuum in them that only Christ can fill. I have seen it in my own life. I was a miserable person, a pot-head alcoholic that had tried everything to quit. When I truly desired to be closer to Christ and to live for Him He made it possible for me to stop! I am so thankful to Him. He's not just some guy who lived a long time ago, He is the creator of all things, and my greatest friend. I guess this is me telling it on the mountain!

I also used to think like a lot of people in here. Even after being raised Christian, I still had doubts. C.S. Lewis, one of the greatest Christian writers of all time, was a devout atheist before being won over by Christ. Just open your heart and mind to the idea of Him, open the Word and ask Him to prove you wrong. Let Him in...He'll never force it. He is gentle and kind, and He created us to want to invite Him into our hearts...not as robots that have no choice.

After my brother went to a Christian rehab center a few years back (He was on some really bad drugs) and got saved, my heart started to get convicted. I saw the change in his life, but didn't want to change mine. I still continued to sin, and harden my heart to God. It wasn't until this year when I feel that I sort of hit rock-bottom and asked God for help. That was when everything in my life changed...my desires, my thoughts, my mood, my path. I realized what was truly important in life, and it's not the things I used to think. I still come to this site and watch movies and all that, I'm not going to be drinking the special Kool-aid and wearing all black or anything crazy. I just put Christ first in my life now. You don't have to wait to make the same choice I did, you can do it right now if you wanted to.

[Space Tycoon]

And the Muslim question... they don't. Seriously. Muslim's are waaay hard core. The crazy ones who aren't actually Muslim absolve their sins by blowing themselves up in large crowds.


'Kay, that's simply wrong.

What do Muslims believe about forgiveness? Gosh, here's a thought--ask a Muslim. (http://www.islamawareness.net/Repentance/forgiveness.html)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom."

So for me, what it boils down to is that one must earn the forgiveness of Allah through immediate repentance and the performing of good works in payment. It's not enough to simply confess your sins, eventually, and be declared forgiven by the Grace of God.

You've gotta earn it. Which is frankly, a little more realistic to me.





.

[Gentlemen Death]

I just got hit by a thunderbolt from above...or a ban button. I think I'll spend the rest of my days with the other Mania rejects in forum purgatory. See ya!

Well, that was quick....

[SinisterPryde]

I believe in God, just not the Christian God as presented in the current Bible. If a God had wanted us to bow down and worship him constantly, to sing his praises and do all work in his name, then why free will? If he knows all, then why create beings who are predestined to hell simply by the fact of their own nature? Why create situations where many may not even hear his word (and there are places in the world still that have no notion of Christianity) simply to burn in hell? No, I think that the Heaven as described by John Anderson and other mediums is probably closer to the truth than the Bible will ever be.

[Sgt. Awesome]

Do you believe in the atmosphere? Have you ever seen it?

I believe in the atmosphere because, yes I've seen it. Ever been to LA? You can see it there, it's disgusting. Also, lets see if I can remember this. I can't I'll google it instead.
Air Pressure (1)

Objective: To make paper strips bow the wrong way, and make cups and water defy gravity

Outcomes: Demonstrate how force can be applied to move an object

Materials: Paper; scissors; balloon; foam or paper cups; plastic cup; index card or construction paper; water

Doing it: Unlikely paper: Cut two strips of paper about 22 cm by 3 cm. Take a strip in each hand and hold them facing each other, about 12 cm apart, in front of your mouth. Blow steadily between the two strips. "What happens?"
Gravity defying cups: Blow a balloon up to 1/3 of full size. Wet the rims of two paper, plastic, or foam cups and hold them against the sides of the balloon, while you finish blowing it up. "How many cups can you attach?"
Gravity Defying water: Fill a plastic cup about 3/4 full of water. Put an index card on top of the cup. While holding the card tightly against to mouth of the cup, turn the glass upside down. Gently let go of the card. It would be a good idea to do this over a sink, or outside. "How many tries does it take before you get the water to stay in the cup? What happens if you turn the cup sideways?"

Explanation: All of these experiments demonstrate the pressure air exerts on objects. We don't think of air as pushing on things except on very windy days, but air pressure is very important for things like the weather. In the paper strips experiment, blowing between the strips lowers the air pressure there, meaning that the paper is being pushed harder by the air on one side than the other, so they move inwards. In the balloon and cups experiment, the inflating balloon creates suction by getting bigger, so less of the balloon is actually in the cup. This lowers the air pressure, so the suction is really the pressure of the air outside the cup "pushing" the cup into the balloon and causing it to stick there. In the cardboard water glass experiment, the water can't escape until the card is out of the way, but for the card to move, the air inside the glass has to get bigger. The pressure of air outside the glass pushing up on the card keeps it in place.

Note: It might be nice to do Air Has Weight first, to allow the mental connection that air pressure at a point is caused by the weight of air above that point being pulled down by gravity.

Extension: Do the upside down cup again, but this time poke a hole near the bottom of the cup. Cover it tightly with your thumb until the cup is upside down, with the card suspended. Then release your thumb, and watch it collapse. When you move your thumb, air rushes in the hole, raising the pressure of the air inside to match the pressure outside. This means there is no net force pushing the card up, and so gravity wins.

And that's why I believe in atmosphere.

You don't have to wait to make the same choice I did, you can do it right now if you wanted to.

See, wait is where you went wrong. I don't have to make the same choice you did. I could do it right now if I wanted to, but I don't want to. That is why you're the kind of Christian I DON'T like. Instead of saying you have the option of believing what I believe, you gave me a time frame with which to do it in.




And Spacey? Yeah, I knew I was wrong. Don't ask why I then typed it. But I know their method makes more sense. And Muslims are more hard core anyway. Praying five times a day? At certain times? Just dropping everything and praying. That's devotion.

[MPG]

I also want to add that God didn't make us for our own pleasures and interests, but that he made us to praise Him.
And people still keep asking me what I dislike so much about the Christian religion in particular. :D
Do you believe in the atmosphere? Have you ever seen it? Maybe that's a bad example, but think of the things you believe in every day without ever having seen...
Then what would be a good example? I've never seen the far side of the moon myself, but I do strongly assume that the moon has a far side. It's just an extremely likely assumption. Also, I have never seen atoms and molecules, but I still assume that the world is made of atoms, because they are just an amazingly good model for explaining most natural phenomena and if I really really really wanted to, I could invest all my money and time into running experiments that prove the existence of atoms conclusively. Yes, there are many things I "believe" without seeing them, but if I really doubted these things, I could find some way to prove (or disprove) them. So no, the fact that people "believe" in things without having seen them does not at all compare to religious faith.
Have you ever just felt empty? Like there is something missing in your life but you didn't know what? I heard once that everyone has a God-shaped vacuum in them that only Christ can fill.
Well, I think the problem here is that there is very little philosophical education in today's society. The only philosophy most people are taught is religious philosophy, so if people feel empty, then the only thing they know that they can turn to for meaning and support is religion. Still, the fact that most people don't know anything else doesn't mean that there isn't anything else.
C.S. Lewis, one of the greatest Christian writers of all time, was a devout atheist before being won over by Christ.
I really resent the wording "devout atheist". I would somehow assume that most of us don't believe in the old Greek deities (Zeus&Co.), and most people would even go as far as saying that from today's perspective that this religion is complete nonsense and that they'd never ever believe in Zeus and Apollo, yet that doesn't make them devout "Greek mythology atheists". :D

[neglet]

Just open your heart and mind to the idea of Him, open the Word and ask Him to prove you wrong. Let Him in...He'll never force it. He is gentle and kind, and He created us to want to invite Him into our hearts...not as robots that have no choice.

Okay, so at first glance I thought "robots" was referring to Jesus, not people. So am I going to hell because I wondered, "Jesus isn't a Transformer (TM)?!!!" Or because I thought that might make a really cool movie.... :lol:

[Scotia]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Awesome:
And the Muslim question... they don't. Seriously. Muslim's are waaay hard core. The crazy ones who aren't actually Muslim absolve their sins by blowing themselves up in large crowds.

Originally Posted by Space Tycoon:
'Kay, that's simply wrong.

I'm not reading anything inherently wrong with Sgt. Awesome's statement. He doesn't tag every Muslim as a bomb enthusiast, just the crazy ones. He makes the distinction by saying that real Muslims do not blow themselves up. I tend to agree with that.

That said, your thoughts regarding forgivness being earned rather than granted through confession is something I can get behind.

[kah]

rapps- You might want to look into a Unitarian (http://uurockford.org/) congregation. My aunt was raised Catholic and (like the rest of our family) became pretty disillusioned with the church. Unlike the rest of us, though, she found a church that suited her. Maybe you just need to make a tour of churches? Pick one for each Sunday and sit in, see if you like it.

[Gentlemen Death]

This is getting good, come on people continue and get in heated conversations...This is why I stay out of these, because each and everyone of you makes sense and have already said what I am thinking, but please I want you to go on...Just let me pull out my paper and pen....

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[colmatrix]

I am not a great apologetic yet, so I'll just use the Word. I know most of you don't believe in it's power, but I do so let me share.

John 14: 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I have to go to work so I'll be back later!

[rappites]

I would like to beleive in something like this. But, it is hard. I just can't wrap my mind around it. It feels like make beleive. Like believing that Superman, spiderman etc... are real.

Like I said before. If there was a place where I could be part of the community. Where everyone gathers everyweek. Someone get up there and preach about everyday life. Solutions to the problems that we have in life. Some place to make friends.

I do not need a spirtual outlet. But, who knows I may find someplace like to go to.

[rappites]

rapps- You might want to look into a Unitarian (http://uurockford.org/) congregation. My aunt was raised Catholic and (like the rest of our family) became pretty disillusioned with the church. Unlike the rest of us, though, she found a church that suited her. Maybe you just need to make a tour of churches? Pick one for each Sunday and sit in, see if you like it.


Thanks Kah. I just clicked on the link. I had no idea that you looked up a place locally in my area. That is just around the corner from me. I will contact them in August for their next enrollment. Or maybe we will just pop in one Sunday.

[colmatrix]

I would like to beleive in something like this. But, it is hard. I just can't wrap my mind around it. It feels like make beleive. Like believing that Superman, spiderman etc... are real.

Like I said before. If there was a place where I could be part of the community. Where everyone gathers everyweek. Someone get up there and preach about everyday life. Solutions to the problems that we have in life. Some place to make friends.

I do not need a spirtual outlet. But, who knows I may find someplace like to go to.

That's what my church is like! I go to a church where the pastor is not tied down by old traditions. I have the best friends I've ever had from the church, people that genuinely care about me. When I go to church on Sundays, I feel so at home with the way everyone is so nice and caring.

As far as believing, for me it was always harder to believe that we just popped into existence billions of years ago.

OK, off to work now! :D

[Senormac]

So for me, what it boils down to is that one must earn the forgiveness of Allah through immediate repentance and the performing of good works in payment. It's not enough to simply confess your sins, eventually, and be declared forgiven by the Grace of God.

You've gotta earn it. Which is frankly, a little more realistic to me..

This is the foundation for almost every false religion in the world spacey......its works oriented. That is, you have to work your way back into favor with God. You have to do something.......pay the fine.......earn the forgiveness. Even from the earliest days a ton of religions (all?) knew that that was not enough to satisfy their supposed gods, which is why they practiced sacrifice. Something had to die in order for the offence to be forgiven and forgotten. Even the Jews had an extensive sacrifice system in place......for various levels of sin. If you (or anyone want to "work" your way into trying to find favor with God......go to it, but I think you'll find your desires appetites and attitudes will not change. And God will not accept them, cuz in His eyes.....that payment is out of balance. Imagine if you got your new car ripped off and they caught the guy and made him mow your lawn each weekend for 6 months as payment.......would you feel satisfied? Maybe, if you had a lawn like Forest Gump had......but seriously, only you know what is gonna satisfy your feelings of offence.

Its the same with God. We all belong to Him (since He made us) and only He knows what will satisfy His feelings of offence when we sin or do wickedly. So He tells us what we need to do..........

And this is where the problem lies. We (people) don't want to pay His price. We don't want to believe thats what the price is. It is completely offensive to us, even though it is the simplest, kindest, and most gracious extension of love ever required by sinners for payment. It is simply to believe in ......His payment. He paid it. He satisfied Himself by paying Himself what He felt He needed to erase the hurt He was caused by our disobedience to Him.

And He knows.....that our brains, and our hearts change when we honestly accept His payment. Some door in us opens up through the act of saying "yes" instead of "no" to His payment method. And through that doorway is a never ending journey filled with love....acceptance...understandings....healings... ...knowledge....blessings......and every manner of good thing.

The way.....His way to open that door.......is Jesus. He is the focal point and answer for the entire human race. But until a person says "yes" to Christ.....that doorway inside of them......remains closed.

[colmatrix]

Well said man!

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into this world, but men loved darkness instead because their deeds were evil. 20. Everyone who does evil hates light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Basically what Senormac said...people don't want to or are afraid to admit that they are sinners, and need salvation. Christianity is set apart from all other religions by one major reason. No matter how hard anyone tries they'll never outweigh the bad over good things they do, so a free gift of grace is needed. Christ died for that very reason! He wants you to find Him out, to search for Him. All you need to do is pray...admit your sins to Him, ask Him for forgiveness. Invite Him into your life, but with an open heart that seeks change for the better.

[SinisterPryde]

But fear has always been the problem.

No matter how you look at, it the Bible teaches fear. It is fear of an everlasting torment that is supposed to shape our lives and control our thoughts.

We are also taught that Jesus is love. The he died for our sins. Only there is a catch. even though Jesus took all our sin on him, its only through believing in him and asking for the forgiveness that it is given.

I remember someone saying (or maybe it was VeggieTales) that God gives us free will to choose what we will for ourselves. He will never force us to worship him because that is not what he wants. He wants us to choose to love and believe in him. Conversely, if you don't do these things then you are condemned and your name stricken from the Book of Life. How is that not demanding?

Bible quotes, while pretty at times, even sensible, don't really inspire me. We know the Bible is merely a collection of stories that were deemed "divine" by the precursor to the Catholic church for the people. Many books were not included that mentioned fantastic creatures or named angels. A group of men decided what was God's word and what wasn't. So while a good history lesson to some degree and and some good guidelines for living, it should not be used to convince of God's presence.

I have other issues I won't bring up simply because I believe in intelligent discussion. I respect every Christian and what they believe. Just as I respect Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and other religions. I think that we are all headed for the same destination, we're all of us just finding our own way there.

[Sgt. Awesome]

John 14: 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."


Quoth Jesus as he pullith out his nines.


Sorry. It seems more like a challenge then anything else.

[MPG]

I remember someone saying (or maybe it was VeggieTales) that God gives us free will to choose what we will for ourselves. He will never force us to worship him because that is not what he wants. He wants us to choose to love and believe in him. Conversely, if you don't do these things then you are condemned and your name stricken from the Book of Life. How is that not demanding?
True. It's a bit like someone pointing a gun at your face and telling you "I am not forcing you to give me your money, but if you don't, I'll shoot you in the head." Of course, you still have the option to keep your money, but I think any court of law would agree with you that this really wasn't a viable option in this situation. :D
Bible quotes, while pretty at times, even sensible, don't really inspire me.
There's a good amount of circular reasoning going on when religious people quote scripture at non-religious people. First of all, to the religious person, the scripture quotes are meaningful and awe-inspiring, mostly because they already believe that the scripture comes from a divine source, while to the non-religious person, scripture quotes are just words in an often unnecessarily metaphoric and out-dated language.

So the result is that the non-religious person ends up wondering whether the religious person actually understands what he is talking about, because he apparently couldn't make the statement in his own words, and the religious person ends up wondering why the non-religious person didn't convert immediately. Frustration abound. :wink:
We know the Bible is merely a collection of stories that were deemed "divine" by the precursor to the Catholic church for the people. Many books were not included that mentioned fantastic creatures or named angels. A group of men decided what was God's word and what wasn't. So while a good history lesson to some degree and and some good guidelines for living, it should not be used to convince of God's presence.
Well, to be fair, if I were religious, I'd reply that the people who made these choices were divinely inspired. After all, the whole Christian theology is based on that idea, because a lot of what Christians will tell you about what to believe and what not to believe doesn't come from Jesus but from Paul, so a Christian must assume that people can be divinely inspired and are able to extend and amend Jesus' teachings.
I respect every Christian and what they believe. Just as I respect Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and other religions.
A can of worms just begging to be opened. :D

[Gentlemen Death]

I respect every Christian and what they believe. Just as I respect Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and other religions. I think that we are all headed for the same destination, we're all of us just finding our own way there.

You know, I do not care to at all for relighion but I respect the fact that people do have religion. My whole thing is, if it makes you happy then I am happy for you and there would be no reason to try and knock you for somthing you beleive in, even if you are catholic, mormon, jewish, etc.

Hell, my brother is a mormon and he just got back about a month and a half ago from his two year mission. Before that he was doing drugs and had no clue wtf he wanted to do....Now he goes to BYU, and is majoring in law and thinking about joining the ROTC....And he has been extremely happy, then any other time I have ever seen him, and I am gratefull for him....:)

[Space Tycoon]

I didn't mean to jump on Sgt Awesome there. I just hear a lot of bad, ignorant stuff about Islam from people who honestly think that the Qu'ran proscribes kiddie suicide belts and honour killing. I know the good Sarge isn't one of them.

Suicide bombing, and terrorism in general, are merely tactics in asymmetric warfare--the poor man's cruise missile, if you will. Anarchists, Marxists, and nationalists were hurling bombs long before we were talking about "Islamic terrorism." In fact, leftist terrorists were and are motivated by atheism--the complete abolition of religion. Suicide bombing really didn't take off in popularity until the conflict in Sri Lanka during the 1970's, which had nothing to do with Islam or the Mideast.

On the other side of the argument, I disagree sharply with people who proclaim that "Islam is a religion of peace," with nothing at all to do with Jihad or violence. Such statements ignore Islam's roots in war, as well as peace. Islam acknowledeges the duty of every Muslim to resist injustice done to other Muslims, wherever they are. Kind of an "all for one, one for all" type of ethic. The Qu'ran specifies rules of conduct in warfare, where civilians are concerend. Mainly, don't kill them. But Muslims definitely see the world in terms of us and them. Being faced with reactionary, repressive governments and religious intolerants doesn't exactly dissuade them from this view.

The problem is that there are so many verses in the Qu'ran which can be misinterpreted by human beings. The Prophet Muhammad kept adding from time to time, leading to deep divisions and contradictory interpretations which persist to this day.

But then, I hear that's true of Christianity as well. :Smirk:








.

[Jakester]

I thought I'd test that old adage, "God helps those who help themselves."
I was hungry, so I took myself to the store, where I bought some nice crusty yet deliciously soft inside rolls, some nice Monterey Jack cheese, really tasty deli turkey breast, a vine-ripened tomato, gourmet mustard, and some Boston bibb lettuce.

I took my purchases home and sat them on the counter. I helped myself by taking myself to the store and getting all of those items all by myself and bringing them home. That was two weeks ago and God still ain't made me a damn sandwich!

[Gentlemen Death]

Guys have penis' and girls have vaginas and she-males have both....

[colmatrix]

I wonder why people are so quick to dismiss all of the suicide bombers and jihaddists as extremists who distort the teachings of the Qu'ron, yet most Christians are all seen as a stereotype in their own regard. I hope that we can get the same respect, that's all. We are all the body of Christ, but we are all also very unique and different. I wish people wouldn't see as all as a bad joke...

I am not singling anyone here out, Space brought up a good point that made me think, that's all.

[Space Tycoon]

The crazy thing about this whole "Clash of Civilizations" situation is that Islam and Christianity share many of the same thelogical roots and core beliefs, when you boil it all down. They both come from the same place, you might say.

Heck, they are the only other major religion in the world that reveres Jesus Christ! In fact, when uttering Christ's name, Muslims are required to follow it up with, "Peace Be Upon Him," just as with Muhammad, Moses, Abraham. That alone should tell you something.

Sadly, the three great Abrahamaic faiths, with all their hundreds of millions of followers, can't take a common stand against the larger evils of unchecked materialism, nationalism, racism and amoral nihilism that are truly destroying the world.







.

[SinisterPryde]

People need few things in this life, but they seem to be very important things: Love, faith, and conflict. I am talking emotional here. We can all shout oxygen, water, food, blah, blah, blah, you know what I mean.
You can't get different branches of Western Religion to agree, how are you going to get Eastern and Western religions to do it?
Religion is very powerful and can be life changing. Unfortunately, we live in a world where those in power have learned to use the tools provided to them. Religion being one of them. We can argue about Christianity being all about God, but we also know that many who claim to follow him have no problem using religion to justify what they do. The more easily seduced of the populace even embraces what their leaders (religious or political, it doesn't matter) tells them is the will of God.
I digress, the point I was making is that the greater number of people's will always be divided by how they worship.

[Woodwraith]

Interesting point you make there Sinster. And too true.

[colmatrix]

People need few things in this life, but they seem to be very important things: Love, faith, and conflict. I am talking emotional here. We can all shout oxygen, water, food, blah, blah, blah, you know what I mean.
You can't get different branches of Western Religion to agree, how are you going to get Eastern and Western religions to do it?
Religion is very powerful and can be life changing. Unfortunately, we live in a world where those in power have learned to use the tools provided to them. Religion being one of them. We can argue about Christianity being all about God, but we also know that many who claim to follow him have no problem using religion to justify what they do. The more easily seduced of the populace even embraces what their leaders (religious or political, it doesn't matter) tells them is the will of God.
I digress, the point I was making is that the greater number of people's will always be divided by how they worship.

That's exactly the type of stereotype I was just talking about...I am one of the many and what have I ever had to justify? Just like any other religion, some leaders and others are human beings. Everyone is able to be corrupted, and not everyone even listens to or follows the words of Christ. People distort his message, even some in the church. I never ask anyone to follow men, only Jesus and his teachings. That is why I quote scripture and try not to persuade by my words, because I'm just another Joe-shmo. But the word of God is powerful, and speaks to people better than I ever could.

[Kaeos]

I never ask anyone to follow men, only Jesus and his teachings. That is why I quote scripture and try not to persuade by my words, because I'm just another Joe-shmo. But the word of God is powerful, and speaks to people better than I ever could.

I just want to hit on 2 quick points as I've been reading through this thread.

1) What I see here in this statement Col, makes me feel better. Your devotion to your FAITH, I said faith, not religion is what warms the heart bro. I don't think anyone is trying to lump you in with Jerry Falwell may he burn in peace.

But I think what everyone is getting at is that on the national stage, prominant religious leaders are the evangelical equivalent of Celebu-tards. That should have no bearing on your personally because you've made it clear that you do not align yourself with them.

An analogy: It's like being a femal actress....say Hillary Duff. A fine young actress, clean cut, good at what she does. But since she is a young female actress a lot of people look at her and wonder how long before she can be lumped in with Lohan, Paris and Brittany.

I think you are feeling lumped in with the type of religious devotee that other posters here have been attacking. Your obviously not and that statement above proves it. Your commitment to your faith is a heck of a lock stronger than mine personally, but it's all good if it's what satisfies your need for it. That's what it's all about.

2) I do wish to argue on point with you though.

I never ask anyone to follow men, only Jesus and his teachings. That is why I quote scripture

I've maintained a constant position in my life that scripture is a convenient fallacy. While the scriptures, be them Jewish, Catholic, Christian, Hindu, Islmaic and everything in between can offer useful guidelines to leader a better life, I think far too many people place far too much personal stock in their authenticity. Every time I hear someone say "Jesus said...." I am amazed.

It is incontrivertable historical fact that the books we refer to as the Bible are stories that have been written, rewritten, rewritten again and again and again over the last 2000 years by men in power. At this point in history all posibility of knowing what the true, actual, writings of figures like Moses and Jesus were are gone. What I see when I open the bible is a loose collection of inconsistant poetry from the ancient world. I do not see God in the scriptures. Men took him out centuries ago.

The single biggest oxymoron in the Bible is this: The Bible states that all mankind is inherently sinful. Only God is without fault. Yet over the millenia thousands of MEN have stepped up and claimed to speak for God and many of those men have their stories now embraced by millions all over the world.

So...if man is automatically a sinner (liar if you will) then how can we beleive that any of these men was telling the truth about being guided by God's word. They can't have been telling the turth because it says that men are liars. See?

Anyway my point is find your FAITH within yourself. Don't rely on the convoluted writings of those who had the power to edit the Bible for the last 2000 years. Look within yourself for the answers.

[SinisterPryde]

I also have to bump in and state that certain stereotypes pop up for a reason. People don't sit in a room and then invent generalities about a group of people just because they are bored. Stereotypes are usually earned. One that I can make right now is that some of the Born-Again Christians I know, tend to be somewhat arrogant and look down on others who are not in their church. I know they are not all like that. Just as not all cops are dirty or power hungry, and not all politicians are conniving money hungry opportunists.

Col, I admire your faith and your strength of character. If I have in some way insulted you, I apologize. That was never my intention. I was more referring to certain peoples who have power that say things like "God Bless America" before attacking another country and , in my mind, committing mass murder. These people, the ones who are public, seem to make it very important that everyone knows they come from a "good, solid, Christian upbringing".

I also want to state that I am not attacking religion of any kind. Simply the people who are involved in them that give them a bad name.

[rappites]

K-man you gave me chills when I read what you wrote. You said what I have been wanting to say and could not put it into words.



Thank you.

[colmatrix]

I really appreciate the kindness in your responses, especially when we are dealing with a subject that can make so many people upset angry. But when you try to tell me that the Bible is a loosely knit together collection of stories I have to disagree. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but I say it is the God-inspired written word of God. It was written over thousands of years by many different authors, ranging from slaves to kings, some of whom never had any knowledge of the others writings. So many prophecies from the early scriptures were fulfilled by Christ's coming, death, and resurrection. There was so much care and dedication that went into each translation that if any mistake were made, they would have to start over completely. And it doesn't ever contradict itself, and for those of you who say it does, prove it to me with evidence...

I share my faith because I am compelled to do so by the Holy Spirit. You have heard my words and can choose to make a choice, accept it or don't, but no matter what I say from this point on it will always be a leap of faith. You can take it, and accept Christ as the redeemer of your sins and Lord of your life or you can't. Part of it is having the heart and mind of a child, which Jesus loves. I'll never, ever be convinced otherwise because I have a relationship with the living God! I talk to Him every day! He talks to me through his Word. I feel it's power, I get revelation after revelation from it all the time. The Holy Spirit comes upon me and there is nothing else like it, drugs and alcohol never felt as good. Each day I want only more and more of it in my life, but it's not because I am seeking out pleasure for myself, but giving myself over to God and His will. Not that I don't make mistakes and slip up along the way...but when I do Jesus forgives me and I press on.

So I can't buy into the worldly slogan of "Look out for #1" or "look inside myself for the truth", when I know those things not to be true. I've tried that road before, and at the end, there is nothing there. For me, from now on, it will always be about Him!

[Kaeos]

More power to you brother C. If it gets you through the day. then that's all that matters in the end.

Peace. :D

[colmatrix]

Thanks bro!!

[Intelligent_Design]

Its really simple .

Heaven is Jessica Alba's vagina
Hell is where Spawn's boss works


This is what I believe, and don't any of you insensitive bastards mock my beliefs.

[Al-Dog]

When is communion?