Deomocratic smear campaign letter on e-bay!!

[Senormac]

Posted - Oct 12 2007 : 7:56:38 PM
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For all who are interested. Heres the ebay auction for the "Smear Rush Limbaugh Campaign" put forth by Harry Reid and signed by 41 of the Democratic Senators. I would be ashamed if I was a Dem. Are these guys really behaving in a way that makes you proud to be a Dem? This baby is gonna go for a bundle........

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260170172469

[Kaeos]

Just a tiny tad bit one sided there sir. Is this no different than the completely unnecessary action put forth against moveon.org? but I imagine you had no issue with that statement, of course.

Have you tuned out this week's constant tirade of right wing Republicans unabashedly insulting the intelligence and character of President Carter? Have you not heard them tripping over themselves to smear Former Vice President Al Gore over this Nobel nonsense? And just how many times this past week has a Right Wing Republican commentator "misspoken" and made a "faux pas" comparing a United States Senator to Osama Bin Laden becuase of his name?

Limbaugh puts himself out there are an attack dog. He is hateful. He is a smear machine. He daily and routinely makes unfounded accusations and insinuations against anyone who does not march in lock step with the Republicans. I know becuase I tune into him quite a bit, so I am not just some small minded Liberal with a chip on my shoulder. I listen to both sides and I am sorry my friend, the hate machine is not on the Democratic side of the aisle right now.

Limbaugh is a hate monger. His whole purpose in going on the air every day is to tell you what is wrong about the other side. If the "moveon" legislation was okay, then this should be okay too then right? He impuned the loyalty and character of soldiers who state their own personal political views and he should just be left alone right?

Here's the real question sir. Should anyone be proud to be a "Dem" over this letter? Or should anyone be ASHAMED to call themselves a Republican. Who should be ashamed today?

How about anyone who is a loyal viewer of Fox News. The "news" channel that sent their resident hate dog Michelle Malkin to stalk the Frost family and expose them as the Liberal puppets they are.
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/08/graeme-frost-and-the-perils-of-democrat-poster-child-abuse/

Who should be ashamed today?

How about anyone who subscribes to sites like freerepublic.com who PUBLISHED the private and personal information of the Frost family. Law abiding American citizens who's apparent crime was allowing their 12 year old son to speak on behalf of the MILLIONS of children who will continue to go without healthcare because of partisan politcal BULLSHIT.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1907687/posts

THIS CHILD HAS RECIEVED DEATH THREATS FROM RIGHTWING NUTS because of what these people have done. DEATH THREATS SIR.

Who should be ashamed? Americans who are fed up with the right wing hate machine and want to do something about the hateful crap that spews out of Rush Limbaugh's mouth? Should they be Ashamed of a LETTER condeming hate speech?

Who should be ashamed?

I have always held some level of respect for your viewpoint sir. Until now.

[UNCLEagent]

Reading the letter, I do not find much to disagree with, nor do I see much shame in it. If anything, I find it objectionable that they would label his comments "unpatriotic" - I find that offensive.

I do find it offensive that there are great lengths taken here with this letter to politicize the sacrifices of the troops in order to bring about an assualt on a citizen for voicing his opinions. I would like to think that the US Sentae (R OR D) could find greater affairs in the interests of our troops and our Nation, rather than using these commendations for political points.

That said, I agree with the points addressed by Kaeos, but the final satement attacking Senor was off the mark and unwarranted.

I will be the first to say, I am ashamed of what the Republican Party has devolved into - and I am ashamed at what the Democrats are failing to rise to.

Simply - I don't like any of them. I want to be a Canadian. Or maybe a Liechtensteiner. Yeah. With Lederhosen.

[Bill_the_Pony]

Simply - I don't like any of them. I want to be a Canadian. Or maybe a Liechtensteiner. Yeah. With Lederhosen.

Oh, Yahh, oh Yahh. http://a975.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/48/m_ec0edd31b156fe910f86093577028a3e.gif

[Nostromo]

I don't like any of them. I want to be a Canadian.

We'll take you. But first you must study for the entrance exam. :wink: N

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~steffan/canadianisms.html

[Outsydr]

I would be ashamed if I was a Dem. Are these guys really behaving in a way that makes you proud to be a Dem?


"Ashamed"?

Dude, where's my pen?!? Aren't YOU ashamed to perpetuate the ridiculous notiong that this is smear?

[Jakester]

Uhh...what Unc said.

[Lavoruis]

News flash to Kaeos .
Both parties suck. That is all

[Kaeos]

News flash to Kaeos .
Both parties suck. That is all

I ABSOLUTLEY agree with you Lavorious. But it's not a news flash to me. Right now I am forced to choose between the lesser of 2 evils. Which group of jackasses will do the LEAST damage to the country right now? that's where I come from. The Dems are no better. But they are CERTAINLY not worse right now.

That is all. :)

[MPG]

I ABSOLUTLEY agree with you Lavorious. But it's not a news flash to me. Right now I am forced to choose between the lesser of 2 evils. Which group of jackasses will do the LEAST damage to the country right now? that's where I come from. The Dems are no better. But they are CERTAINLY not worse right now.

So you'll vote for Kodos? :smirk:

[Kaeos]

So you'll vote for Kodos? :smirk:

:headscratch: ....well, I'd need to see his platform :smirk:

But if he doesn't have wide reaching appeal across the lines, then my vote would be wasted. :lol:

[Senormac]

Look Kaeos.....Rush is a private citiizen, and he is protected by the American Constitution....FREEDOM OF SPEECH. If nobody listened to him he would be off the air in no time. But he isn't ....why? Because what he says rings true with millions and millions of people across this country.

Now you (and many here) obviously take the opposing side of politics. But for one of those parties to try to shut down the voice of one man should ring some bells and turn on some lights. They are moving dangerously close to squelching the constitution in order to have their way. I find that pretty shameful. Why? because they have lost sight of what they are in office to protect. And they do it more and more frequently.

This letter represents a sham. A completely fabricated lie. A total setup based only in envy, hate and jealousy. To think that Rush is Anti troops is ridiculous. Its laughable. The idea is so totally out of touch....it causes one to question the sanity of those who think it.

And as for your response.......you have reacted in the same way as many Dems I have talked to respond. They finger point, name call and change the subject. Now I'm not saying the Republicans don't have any dirty laundry.....but you havn't started any threads to talk about those subjects. You only try to bring them up when something the Dems do is brought to light....... in order to muddy the waters.

I don't say that the Repubs are our final hope........just our second to last hope :smirk:

[Queen Mae]

I will be the first to say, I am ashamed of what the Republican Party has devolved into - and I am ashamed at what the Democrats are failing to rise to.



Yes. Exactly.

[Queen Mae]

I don't say that the Repubs are our final hope........just our second to last hope :smirk:

How about we make individuals our hope. Why do we need to lump people together into "us" and "them."

Smear campaigns are terrible things, and members of both parties are guilty of participating in them. However, it is important to remember that not all members of the parties perpetuate such things.

We need to get over these party lines and address the main socio-economic issues affecting our nation and vote and act according to the issues that we believe in.

Fuck this soap opera bullshit that happens in D.C. Let's talk about what happens in your neighborhood. Keep the political personal and the personal politicial.

If some people want to forget about the true heart of this country and succumb to hate-mongering and fear, point fingers, or bow down to the holy dollar - then so be it. Let them - but let us focus on reality and be driven by our Reason.

Quit pointing fingers yourselves and telling people they should be ashamed of something they had no part in.

I operate under the assumption that all people want the same thing - a general feeling of peace and prosperity in the world. Any reasonable person does not want to see another suffer.

This is nothing more than gossip and it is in no way helpful.

If you want peace, work for justice.

Don't sit around and point fingers thinking you are better than everyone else.

[Bill_the_Pony]

Can I vote for you as president? :)

[UNCLEagent]

She's a Queen!

[Bill_the_Pony]

Okay, can I vote for her as Queen, then? :)

[UNCLEagent]

No. She's Queen by Devine providence.

But it would be AWESOME if we could vote for Queens!

Now, I have discovered an affinity for Myers Jamaican Rum with Coke.

GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!

[UNCLEagent]

Any reasonable person does not want to see another suffer.


There are too few reasonable people in this world. Suffering is the default setting for human nature.

[Gentlemen Death]

I am not going to take any sides because I disagree with both sides. BUT it IS nice to see a thread not completely bashing the President of the U.S or Republicans in general...It seems that when politics are involved here at mania, it is always about how fucked up Republicans are....It gets old....:wink:

[Bill_the_Pony]

I am not going to take any sides because I disagree with both sides. BUT it IS nice to see a thread not completely bashing the President of the U.S or Republicans in general...It seems that when politics are involved here at mania, it is always about how fucked up Republicans are....It gets old....:wink:

Oh that's right, I forgot..... fuck Bush. http://a646.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/113/m_b2327411aa6c781df90a98da504be44d.gif

[MPG]

:headscratch: ....well, I'd need to see his platform :smirk:

But if he doesn't have wide reaching appeal across the lines, then my vote would be wasted. :lol:

:D I just think it's interesting... if everyone who constantly uses the words "lesser of two evils" when talking about their voting behaviour could realize that there are more than two choices in a US election, then there wouldn't be a two-party system anymore.

My whole thinking is based on the idea that people should act how they would want others to act. However, the voting behaviour of roughly 90% of all Americans is based on what they predict how others are going to vote. It gives me a headache, because it's really the opposite of sensible behaviour in my eyes, and it's the root of the American two-party system which is in turn the reason for the "us vs. them" situation, because a two-party system in my opinion naturally tends to move towards an uneasy 51%/49% split along party lines.

[Kaeos]

:D I just think it's interesting... if everyone who constantly uses the words "lesser of two evils" when talking about their voting behaviour could realize that there are more than two choices in a US election, then there wouldn't be a two-party system anymore.

My whole thinking is based on the idea that people should act how they would want others to act. However, the voting behaviour of roughly 90% of all Americans is based on what they predict how others are going to vote. It gives me a headache, because it's really the opposite of sensible behaviour in my eyes, and it's the root of the American two-party system which is in turn the reason for the "us vs. them" situation, because a two-party system in my opinion naturally tends to move towards an uneasy 51%/49% split along party lines.

Exactly. But it's going to take a LOT to change that unfortunate stalemate. Our country is big freekin trouble in the next 50 years IMHO because of it. the 2000 elecition was the first step down a very slippery slope with a virtual 50/50 split in the populace. One guy wins the popular and the other is handed the electoral by the Supreme Court. Something is very very wrong with that scenario.

Thus far in my lifetine, 3rd party candidates have emerged as nothing more than characatures and only serve to divide the vote of one party or the other. Not both.

Something has to change or these two parties will lead us to ruin. If we blindly vote for the current Democratic Party" becuase we "think" they can take care of the problems, with no thought as to who we are really voting for, then we risk becoming a true socialist state with a bloated, non functional government. I admit that.

But If we keep blindly voting for Republicans because we "think" they best represent Conservative values then we will become a Facist state in the next decade. Sounds silly? HOw many facets of the Constitution have been circumvented by this administration for the sake of "the war on terror" ? And as long as they remain in power, we will remain under the thumb of the idea of "the war on terror" How long before we run out of volunteers? How long before your kids and mine are drafted to go die in a desert? Sounds silly? Really?

Show me someone that the whole country can get behind.

Someone that isn't beholden to one party or another.

Then tell me how to get the American people to ignore hate mongers and smear artists like Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Really and vote that person in.

Until then, we're just going to have to vote for the lesser of 2 evils man. It's just a reality. And right now, when I think of the future security of my children, I have to unfortunately side with the Democrats. For now.

[Senormac]

And since nobody here has posted up the source and foundation for this letter (prob cuz it knocks the hell out of any honor the dems had) I will do it. They based this whole campaign and letter on Rushs comments about this person.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Macbeth

I guess thats what I find sad. The smallest bit of research would lead a person to the truth of this information. If they weren't so eager to destroy Rush, they wouldn't have been exposed in this way. And man, this letter exposes a bunch. Talk about jumping on the band wagon! Now, don't get me wrong......if you vote Dem.....I'm not saying you are like these senators .......and I'm not calling you any names.....but it sure makes you question what and who you are voting for.

[sickness]

I've been following this whole flap over Rush, Senor, and he CLEARLY says "phony soldierS," not the singular and in no way could his statement be shown to be about Macbeth or anyone like him even when taken in context. He was calling former soldiers who disagree with the war and have chosen to speak out phonies. Plain and simple.

Rush is a good-ol' fashion racist, hate-mongerer (you remember the Halfrican-American thing, right?) who is intent on squelching the free speech of anyone who doesn't toe the same line he does by character assassination (I can't think of much reason to call Obama by his full name when he has clearly identified by first and last other than to try to inspire a little fear in the simpletons that take his word as gospel).

Republicans were quick to jump on Moveon.org for the General Betray Us ad (as they and every Democrat should have been), why so slow to nail Rush to the cross for this (and don't tell me it's different because it isn't; it is no different... guys like the members of Votevets.org don't deserve a comment like phony soldiers any more than Petraeus deserves a label like General Betray Us) or O'Reilly for acting surprised that black people aren't just climbing up out of the swamp? How about O'Reilly's claim that Shawn Hornbeck liked being kidnapped? No outrage there, either. None of these are helpful to the national discourse and yet many people tolerate them because of party affiliation.

All I see are a bunch of hypocrites.

[Gentlemen Death]

Oh that's right, I forgot..... fuck Bush. http://a646.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/113/m_b2327411aa6c781df90a98da504be44d.gif

I want that smiley, Bill!!! :lol:

[whitetemplar78]

We all have to face the facts here people, and its not pretty. Congress as a body, is failing this country, BADLY, ask yourself, what has the great Democratic run Congress done since it swept into power on its hate Bush wave??......Health Care?..still crappy....Social Security?........getting more and more empty as the days go by......uuuggghhh, never mind, it would take too many pages to show how congress has down nothing, but bash Bush, bash Republicans, bash themselves, and now radio host.......woohooo, let me tell yah I feel great, to see our great system sit here and doing nothing but bitch, and whine about how the other party is screwin it all up.....heres a idea......GET OVER IT, AND MOVE ON

The War??.....its too late, stop whining, stop looking for a escape hatch, and oh wait, here's a idea, win the damn thing, God its like dropping the bottle of mustard, and bitchin that if the contractors hadn't tilted the floor so much when the kitchen was built, it would have never happened. and yes I want to win it, not leave it, not run away, not drop the ball WIN, why??? cause im some right wing nut job?.....no because I served 10 years and god knows how I would feel after losing a couple of buddies there, if we just walked away, and threw everything our people have lost over there away....our leaders need to unit LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TOO, and win this, and they need to move on, and oh yah....DO THE FUCKING JOB THEY WERE HIRED FOR.........uuggghhh, and no its not writing letters about some blow head on the radio, and no its not to rag on some 12yr old kid, its to create laws, balance the budget, and protect our national interests both abroad, and home, and they have done nothing.......THEY..........HAVE.......DONE....... ....NOTHING.

Notice how im saying THEY and not the Democrats, or the Republicans, cause right now, they are both screwin the pooch on this one, Democrats are in control right now, so right now they are screwin a much bigger pooch, but still both have their heads so far up their ass they need air pumped in through their nipples to breath.

In closing, don't jump me cause of my war views, or my anti moron in congress stance, but instead I want all the smart people here (and im serious on that) to show me one damn thing that this congress has done......mmm....lets say in the last couple of years, that’s worth the paper its been printed on, and im talkin about a major issue that can become a major crises any day now.....thanks.

[Senormac]

......and yes I want to win it, not leave it, not run away, not drop the ball WIN, why??? cause im some right wing nut job?.....no because I served 10 years and god knows how I would feel after losing a couple of buddies there, if we just walked away, and threw everything our people have lost over there away....our leaders need to unite LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TOO, and win this, and they need to move on, and oh yah....DO THE FUCKING JOB THEY WERE HIRED FOR.........uuggghhh,
....thanks.

I thought this was a great point whitemplar....one that never gets mentioned by ANY of the media outlets, and that is how the soldiers feel about it. They only search out the fraction of dissenters and magnify their words to the hundredth.....

[Space Tycoon]

The War??.....its too late, stop whining, stop looking for a escape hatch, and oh wait, here's a idea, win the damn thing

How do we define winning? What would victory look like?







.

[Senormac]

Thats your problem spacey......you got no vision....no goal. Why don't you tell "US" what victory looks like instead of the other way around.

[KingVoyeur]

Victory could be this

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u110/chris1911cs/asilvadance06cd7.gif

or this

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w264/oicvridi/2.jpg

or how about this

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd147/JodyMcAwesomePants/Victory.jpg

or maybe even this.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z285/Mortis_Vitae/funny%20cats/victory.jpg

Take your pick!

[sickness]

Thats your problem spacey......you got no vision....no goal. Why don't you tell "US" what victory looks like instead of the other way around.
Perhaps the people who are telling us we should stay there to achieve victory should tell us what victory is so we can know when we have achieved it and get the hell out rather than spin our wheels in someone else's mud and just piss them off all in the name of some vague or undefined idea of victory which is left as such so we have an excuse to stay ad infinitum.

Really. If you want to stay and achieve a victory, define it. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time and pissing away whatever's left of our reputation around the world which, by the way, is worth more (or has been in the past) than any military might we posess. We never had to go to war against the USSR because they knew what we could do. We had unquestioning allies during the Cold War because they knew what the Soviets could do and they knew that we were the first and best line of defense against that. Where's that unity now?

[Jakester]

I admit that I believed Bush and, more accurately, Gen. Powell about the imminent threat posed by Hussein having WMDs, and thus, supported the invasion. However, I felt betrayed and used when it became clear that there were none. I admit that I really began to question Bush when he'd say "We will get Hussein and end his reign of terror" and then a few days later claim that getting him isn't very important.

The lies that Bush used to get us over there are why people want the troops out. The fact that Bush claimed "Mission Accomplished" years ago, yet we've thousands more troops in combat NOW are why people want the troops out.
The evidence of wanton violence by contractors against civilians are why people want the troops out.

At any rate, my philosophy is that we went over there and made this mess, and we do have a responsibility to help fix it. HOWEVER, it is clear that Bush's "strategy" is not working, nor has it ever really worked. Throwing more troops isn't really solving the problem. The Iraqi's need to step up and defend themselves. We can and should help, but when you consider that we've been training them for YEARS and they're "still not ready," yet we throw our guys in boot camp for six weeks and then they go to Iraq to fight, it's clear that someone's not pulling their weight, and we need to do something to force them to step up and take the active role in leading their own country.

[neglet]

What Jakester said.

[omicron]

wow, that was a cognizant and intelligent post by Jakester. And not one single innuendo about "pulling out". Who would have thunk it? :)

[whitetemplar78]

I agree with sickness if your gonna post for victory, then you should supply a blueprint for what you believe is victory. So be it.

1. Full and total integration of Iraqi troops and American, for every American he has two Iraqi shadows. Due this for 6 months, far more a heavy level of training then they'll need, but don't take chances. Once the 6 is up, Iraqi Battalions reform and take over, with a light American training presence to help them work out the kinks. NO MATTER WHAT..... this happens in 6 months they will suffer losses that’s something that’s gonna happen, any new army is gonna get bloodied its first time out there, but through the crucible of combat you can gain some well trained battle hardened troops outta the deal. This is also a sure fire way to gain confidence as a army.

2. SEAL THE BORDERS!!!.......SEAL THEM, SEAL THEM, SEAL THEM. As they stand now, they couldn't stop a troop of boy scouts with pocket knifes from getting in. Though no one wants to fight Iran, or Syria, I don't think any of us are really that stupid as to think, that these governments are not supplying a nice large portion of weapons and bombs to insurgents. This needs to be stopped, as long as this goes on, there will be no win, cause we don't try to stop the source of the troubles, two countries that would love a unstable Iraq. When the government is in charge, and its police, and armed forces can patrol the borders well, keep em closed.

3. Keep politics out of war.....someone please name me one war, where half assin it cause our leadership has the backbones of jellyfish, was a clear cut victory.......yah, thought so, you can not win a war outright, and play political games at the same time, you just make something last longer then it should by any right. Let the Generals run this, ITS THEIR JOBS!!.......they will mess up, they will make mistakes, but they will do a hell of allot better then the idiots that run our congress ever could!

In closing......victory is when we can pass the ball off to Iraq and they score a touchdown, face it guys, that’s how we win, when they stand up on their own. Just like post war Europe.....we build them up, let them stand alone, and then pull out, and in the end we HOPE gain a strong ally against the enemies that face us. Guys war isn't nice.....it isn't fair, and frankly im touched about how many want our troops home, but in the end, we all joined on our free will, many after we went in Iraq, we knew the risks, and gladly took them. When my friend Joe Ruggieo came back, with his arm in pieces and his, and my friend Brad dead. I asked him how much he must regret going to that hell hole of a sand pit, and he looked me right in the face, and said "I don't regret anything, when those people walked up to us, and in tears thanked us for helping them, I knew I was apart of something worth it, and I know for a fact Brad felt the same, and I would go back in a heartbeat".......guess what, he did.......twice, and that is courage beyond words....helping people in need, even though we created that need, is something ALWAYS worth fighting, and dying for, never forget that......every day our troops are helping those people rebuild their country, and life’s.....to me, that’s something Im proud of.

[sickness]

I agree with sickness if your gonna post for victory, then you should supply a blueprint for what you believe is victory. So be it.

1. Full and total integration of Iraqi troops and American, for every American he has two Iraqi shadows. Due this for 6 months, far more a heavy level of training then they'll need, but don't take chances. Once the 6 is up, Iraqi Battalions reform and take over, with a light American training presence to help them work out the kinks. NO MATTER WHAT..... this happens in 6 months they will suffer losses that’s something that’s gonna happen, any new army is gonna get bloodied its first time out there, but through the crucible of combat you can gain some well trained battle hardened troops outta the deal. This is also a sure fire way to gain confidence as a army.

2. SEAL THE BORDERS!!!.......SEAL THEM, SEAL THEM, SEAL THEM. As they stand now, they couldn't stop a troop of boy scouts with pocket knifes from getting in. Though no one wants to fight Iran, or Syria, I don't think any of us are really that stupid as to think, that these governments are not supplying a nice large portion of weapons and bombs to insurgents. This needs to be stopped, as long as this goes on, there will be no win, cause we don't try to stop the source of the troubles, two countries that would love a unstable Iraq. When the government is in charge, and its police, and armed forces can patrol the borders well, keep em closed.

3. Keep politics out of war.....someone please name me one war, where half assin it cause our leadership has the backbones of jellyfish, was a clear cut victory.......yah, thought so, you can not win a war outright, and play political games at the same time, you just make something last longer then it should by any right. Let the Generals run this, ITS THEIR JOBS!!.......they will mess up, they will make mistakes, but they will do a hell of allot better then the idiots that run our congress ever could!

In closing......victory is when we can pass the ball off to Iraq and they score a touchdown, face it guys, that’s how we win, when they stand up on their own. Just like post war Europe.....we build them up, let them stand alone, and then pull out, and in the end we HOPE gain a strong ally against the enemies that face us. Guys war isn't nice.....it isn't fair, and frankly im touched about how many want our troops home, but in the end, we all joined on our free will, many after we went in Iraq, we knew the risks, and gladly took them. When my friend Joe Ruggieo came back, with his arm in pieces and his, and my friend Brad dead. I asked him how much he must regret going to that hell hole of a sand pit, and he looked me right in the face, and said "I don't regret anything, when those people walked up to us, and in tears thanked us for helping them, I knew I was apart of something worth it, and I know for a fact Brad felt the same, and I would go back in a heartbeat".......guess what, he did.......twice, and that is courage beyond words....helping people in need, even though we created that need, is something ALWAYS worth fighting, and dying for, never forget that......every day our troops are helping those people rebuild their country, and life’s.....to me, that’s something Im proud of.
Fair enough. A couple questions, though.

How would you address the fact that standing up their army by integration has been a stated goal and a method of operation to some degree for virtually the entirety of this occupation and still only 1 or 2 batallions are ready?

How is it productive to have no political pressure on generals (and a number of them in succession) who are largely failing, repeating the mistakes of the predecessors as well as their own and are lead by a body which is, by its nature, political (i.e. the Presidential Bureaucracy)? I guess what I'm asking here is how can anyone ask a political party that is not satisfied with current results to stand down and let the generals do their job which is dictated and partially micro-managed by politicians and political appointees whose guidance and orders have failed the top brass in our military thus far? In light of four and a half years of, at best, mixed results, shouldn't we also ask these generals to disregard the opinions and advice (and, therefore, orders) of those politicians who have steered them wrong thus far?

[Jakester]

wow, that was a cognizant and intelligent post by Jakester. And not one single innuendo about "pulling out". Who would have thunk it? :)
It gets weirder -- an intelligent person actually agreed with what I wrote.
It might help if you all knew that I had to go spank it when I read that Negs agreed with me.

[spammityspam]

I can almost feel the status quo realigning itself!

[whitetemplar78]

Fair enough. A couple questions, though.

How would you address the fact that standing up their army by integration has been a stated goal and a method of operation to some degree for virtually the entirety of this occupation and still only 1 or 2 batallions are ready?

How is it productive to have no political pressure on generals (and a number of them in succession) who are largely failing, repeating the mistakes of the predecessors as well as their own and are lead by a body which is, by its nature, political (i.e. the Presidential Bureaucracy)? I guess what I'm asking here is how can anyone ask a political party that is not satisfied with current results to stand down and let the generals do their job which is dictated and partially micro-managed by politicians and political appointees whose guidance and orders have failed the top brass in our military thus far? In light of four and a half years of, at best, mixed results, shouldn't we also ask these generals to disregard the opinions and advice (and, therefore, orders) of those politicians who have steered them wrong thus far?

It hasn't been FULL integration, small companys of Iraqi's would follow a squad of American troops....thats it.....that was the great "intregration" its not what is needed, these couple of Iraqi's would live, sleep in the same tents, mess with them, learn the routine of a modern Army in a wartime setting. Its hard to explain what a strong sense of teamwork, and the bonds that grow from it, can mean to a units performance in the field, you can't pass on to a group of soliders that don't even speak your language what it means to defend their home land, on a few patrols. The most sucess that they have had, is when the teams work closely together for long periods of time.

As to your second question.....sickness, isn't it pretty plain, that having the civilian portion of the government micro-manage this war, has been a disaster to the 10th degree?.....I agree with the last half of your statement, that they have a Joint Chiefs for a reason........theres a Pentagon for a reason, why have them, if you won't ever be guided by them?.......Lincoln was guilty of this in the Civil War when he replaced General, after General, and pried into every aspect of the war, only when he gave full control to Grant, and backed off a bit, was the war won.......at a horrible cost, but think this......how many more would have died had the war dragged on for several more years???.....Grant was bloody true, but in the end, a quick heavy bleeding, was much better then many more years of bloodshed. I think Pertranus (SP??) can be Bush's Grant, if he lets him do his job......run the military machine that is his to run. Grant also was qouted.....though i think he was qouting someone else, not sure that show them how harsh and brutal war can be, so they don't yearn for it again in our life times.

In the end, a harsh responce may be a option that we should use....and to people who claim thats too harsh, or it will drive away allies.......uhhh, what are we doing right now???...and last I checked War is the most horrible solution to any problem, it is never meant to be easy.....kind...fair...or bloodless, thats why we must strive to avoid them at all costs, but when as a people, and a nation we find ourselves in one, we must strive just as hard, to win it, as completly as we can.

[Space Tycoon]

Thats your problem spacey......you got no vision....no goal.

I "got no vision"?!!

OK, well, I done got me some of that thar fancy-pants book learnin', and I can tell you that this has been a fool's errand from the word go.

The fucking neo-cons wanted Clinton to overthrow Saddam as far back as '94. America's entire foreign policy appears to be oriented around empowering the Zionists--be they Jewish or Christian-- in their goal of dominating the entire Middle East.

Congradulations idiots!! Tel Aviv thanks you.


Why don't you tell "US" what victory looks like instead of the other way around.

I was against this ridiculous war over FIVE YEARS AGO. I knew it was going to be a dog's breakfast back when Bill Maher still had a tv show on ABC.

So I guess you could say that victory to me looks like going back in time and warning people like you that your fool of a President was driving your whole damned country right off the biggest cliff since the Roman Empire fell. (http://lexlibertas.com/2007/08/16/will-america-fall-like-rome/)

In other words, I cannot envision any real, lasting "victory" ensuing from this disaster, no matter how many lives are lost or how many trillions of US taxpayers' dollars are squandered.







.

[neglet]

It hasn't been FULL integration, small companys of Iraqi's would follow a squad of American troops....thats it.....that was the great "intregration" its not what is needed, these couple of Iraqi's would live, sleep in the same tents, mess with them, learn the routine of a modern Army in a wartime setting. Its hard to explain what a strong sense of teamwork, and the bonds that grow from it, can mean to a units performance in the field, you can't pass on to a group of soliders that don't even speak your language what it means to defend their home land, on a few patrols. The most sucess that they have had, is when the teams work closely together for long periods of time.

I'm not sure what you're describing. Are you saying that we need to combine Iraqi and American forces in more equal numbers? And given that many insurgents work by infilitrating the Iraqi police and armed forces, wouldn't this be asking our troops to take a very, very big risk?

[KingVoyeur]

As for the letter that started this whole argument thread....











the bugger just went for $2.1 million on Ebay. :eek:

Here's a story on some interesting reaction from the Dems.

Reid praises Rush (http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1007/Reid_praises_Rush.html)

[Outsydr]

Good! Some good came of it after all. And I praise Senator Reid for finding the courage to bury the hatchet and move on.

[Senormac]

Give me a break.....Reid is such a dork........he totally tried to hog the spotlight and say that it was his idea and his letter and that the money is going to a really good cause....and that if anyone needs info on the auction be sure to look up "Harry Ried letter" on ebay and it would take him right to the aution ....which is true but its a total line of bull......cuz he had NO part in it getting on ebay at all.

What Harry Reid meant as a dagger for Rushs' heart......Rush turned into a multi-million dollar donation to a military charity in his name. If Reid thinks its such a great idea......lets see him match the price like Rush did with a donation to that charity. Put your money where your mouth is Reid.

HERES THE WHOLE TRANSCRIPT : ------------------READ IT FOR YOURSELF !


HARRY REID: Earlier this month, I came to the floor discussing comments made by Rush Limbaugh. Following my remarks, more than 40 of my Senate colleagues and I cosigned a letter to the chairman of Clear Channel, Mark May, telling him that we wanted him to -- to confer with Rush Limbaugh regarding the statements he made. I've since spoken to Mark May about this. Mark May, in fact, called me regarding this letter.

RUSH: It's Mays.

HARRY REID: This week, Rush Limbaugh put the original copy of that letter up for auction on eBay. Mr. President, we didn't have time or we could have gotten every Democratic Senator to sign that letter. But he put the letter up for auction on eBay. And I think very, very constructively, let the proceeds of that to go to the Marine Corps-Law Enforcement Foundation. What is the Marine Corps-Law Enforcement Foundation? It provides scholarship assistance to children of Marines and federal law enforcement personnel whose parent dies in the line of duty, as well as health care assistance for disabled children of fallen troops. What could be a more worthwhile cause? And I think it's really good that this money on eBay is going to be raised for this purpose. When I spoke to Mark May --

RUSH: Mays.

HARRY REID: -- I think that he and I thought this would probably not raise much money, a letter by Democratic Senators complaining about something. This morning, the bid is more than two million on this. We've watched it during the week. It keeps going up, and up, and up, and there's only a little bit of time left on it. But it's certainly going to be more than two million. Never did we think that this letter would bring money of this nature --

RUSH: Stop the tape here, stop the tape. Do you see what's happening here? This is a clever move, rather transparent, to totally take the credit for this. Had he not sent the letter -- "we" didn't think it would ever generate this kind of money; "we" think it's great to raise this kind of...; "we" think this -- he's hoping that this is the angle the Drive-Bys will cover. Harry Reid is taking credit for writing the letter that gets this money raised for the Marine Corps-Law Enforcement Foundation. Resume tape.


HARRY REID: -- the cause, Madam President, extremely good. Now, everyone knows that Rush Limbaugh and I don't agree on everything in life, and maybe that's kind of an understatement. But without qualification, Mark May, the owner of the network that has Rush Limbaugh, and Rush Limbaugh should know that this letter that they're auctioning is going to be something that raises money for a really worthwhile cause. I don't know what we could do more important than helping make sure that children of our fallen soldiers and police officers who have fallen in the line of duty have the opportunity for their children to have a good education. Think about this. More than $2 million, this is going to really help. And that's, again, an understatement. There's only a little bit of time left.

RUSH: Wait 'til you hear what's coming.

HARRY REID: -- so I would ask those that are wanting to do more, that they can go to the Harry Reid, search -- actually go on say "Harry Reid letter," this will come up on eBay. I encourage anyone interested in this with the means to do so to consider bidding on this letter and contributing to this worthwhile cause.

RUSH: Hang on here.

HARRY REID: I strongly believe that when we can put our differences aside, even Harry Reid and Rush Limbaugh, we should do that and try to accomplish good things for the American people.

RUSH: Okay. Put our differences aside? Has he apologized? He is trying to horn in and act like he's part of this whole thing, folks. This is unbelievable! And now he's out there soliciting contributions on eBay, and believe me, this is what he hopes, of all of the past two weeks, that the Drive-Bys pick up on. Well, I wasn't going to do this. I wasn't going to go back in time. But let's go back, Monday, October 1st, 17 days ago, on the very same Senate floor, Harry Reid said this.

HARRY REID: Last week, Rush Limbaugh went way over the line, way over the line. While I respect his right to say anything he likes, his unpatriotic comments I cannot ignore. During his show last Wednesday, Limbaugh was engaged in one of his typical rants. This one was unremarkable and indistinguishable from his usual drivel, which has been steadily losing listeners for years, until he crossed that line by calling our men and women in uniform who oppose the war in Iraq, and I quote, phony soldiers. This comment was so beyond the pale of decency that we can't leave it alone. And yet he followed it up with denials and an attack on Congressman Jack Murtha, who was a 37-year active member of the Marine Corps, a combat veteran.

RUSH: I wasn't going to go back and relive this because it's ancient history, and we've been moving forward. Senator Reid, you did not mention that I am matching whatever the final total is. That is "we." You were offered an invitation to come on this program and say to my face what we just replayed you saying, that I am unpatriotic, and all of the other smears and lies that you believed from Media Matters for America or whether you knew were smears and lies and just went ahead with it anyway. So now, all of a sudden, this is "we"? You and I have buried the hatchet? You haven't even apologized for this yet and now he wants credit for helping raise this money, as though he's been involved in it all along. It's Orwellian. It's surreal. It's alternate universe. It continues. Senator Reid, I asked you, I suggested that you and Senators in the Senate who could afford this match it. I haven't heard whether you want to match the final total. I pledged to do so from the get-go. By the way, one more time, it's Mays. It's Mark Mays. There's an "S" on the end of his name.

HARRY REID: Rush Limbaugh took it upon himself to attack the courage and character of those fighting and dying for him and for all of us. Rush Limbaugh got himself a deferment from serving when he was a young man. He never served in uniform. He never saw in person the extreme difficulty of maintaining peace in a foreign country engaged in a civil war. He never saw a person in combat. Yet he thinks that his opinion on the war is worth more than those who have been on the front lines. And what's worse, Limbaugh's show is broadcast on Armed Forces Radio, which means that thousands of troops overseas and veterans here at home were forced to hear this attack on their patriotism. Rush Limbaugh owes the men and women of our armed forces an apology.

RUSH: Right. And he wants to pretend now that he's all supportive of this and very happy about it, and that this is "we" and we've buried the hatchet. I still haven't been apologized to for any of this.

[sickness]

And Rush is still an unpatriotic hypocrite who still refuses to own his own words.

[whitetemplar78]

I'm not sure what you're describing. Are you saying that we need to combine Iraqi and American forces in more equal numbers? And given that many insurgents work by infilitrating the Iraqi police and armed forces, wouldn't this be asking our troops to take a very, very big risk?


yes and no, im saying take just a couple of Iraqi's and pair them up with a American....more personal training can lead to better skill building, and faster understanding.

As for your other point, its a real danger, but at the same time, and better screening process would have to be in place, maybe a online photo ID matrix of a type, anytime someone is arrested, tracked, caught, or so on, photo is taken along with fingerprint, and its put into a central database, anytime someone joins up, you can run them through this database.......this is just one idea of course, there can be more ways.

[Kaeos]

Senior, it's obvious you've slipped right off the edge of the slope and your drinking the Republican talking point kool-aid. So be it. I'm not going to try and reason with you on this. Your definitley not the same guy I have debated faith with in the past. It honestly saddens me. Someone said I attacked you earlier in this thread. I don't think I did, and I am not going to now.

For you to sit there and blindly defend a destructive voice like Limbaugh's is astounding to me. You and I have spoken in past years about good, christian values. THIS man is someone who you've deemed worthy of defense? I'm done. Best of luck to you Senior. :(

[Senormac]

You know what kaeos......on one hand you are completely right. He IS a destructive voice and I am behind him. And what he is destroying is the liberal democratic leadership which I have come to see as my enemy in practically every sense. They do not make one single decision that I consider to be GOOD for me. Not one......and Im about fed up. I see NO integrity or character in the majority of leadership persons who take that side of the aisle. Its the politics of freedom....vs the politics of control. Were just about one event away from .......chaos in this country. The two sides cannot work together.....and one is gonna finally rise up and knock the crap outta the other one and just take over. And I don't think its that far away. This country is far far from the place it started out.....and the mind sets of the two parties are completely at odds. The pattern is already there........we are just waiting to fall into it again. Bi-partisanship is a myth. It will never happen.

As for my faith......its NOT in the governments of this world. His word, voice and spirit are my chief concerns.......as well as my hope which will be realized in the end. That is truly the side I am on. When I look up.....and call HIM, there is love. I love HIM because I am aware of HIS love for me. I am tuned into HIS voice to me and HE is always seeking my good. Then, because of that relationship.....I am able to share with my fellow man. But Jesus is not political.

[UNCLEagent]

Well, that's just the point, Senor.

Jesus is not political. It's all about the values and the support we bring to one another. I do not believe Jesus would ever choose Republicans over Democrats, nor would be be likely to align one faction as His enemy.

I agree with your frustration over the Liberal mindset. I share that same frustration with the current crop of 'Conservatives'.

But it is no longer good enough - or healthy - to see which party is doing good for you or me. We need to look at a bigger picture. What is good for all of us. As individuals; as Americans; as members of the human brotherhood.

Ask yourself - what is Rush doing to bring people together?

I respect your honest concerns over a citizen's right to Free Speech being censured. To be fair, I do not see any danger or threat of Rush being silenced anytime soon. Do you?

We agree Rush is destructive. Sadly, that destruction you seemingly endorse is the very essence of what is eating at us as a united people. Hardly in keeping with the Message of Love.

I am not Faithless.

I simply believe God helps those who help themselves. We made this bloody mess. It's up to all of us to fix it, before we have the right present ourselves respectfully to Him.

[Queen Mae]

You know what kaeos......on one hand you are completely right. He IS a destructive voice and I am behind him. And what he is destroying is the liberal democratic leadership which I have come to see as my enemy in practically every sense. They do not make one single decision that I consider to be GOOD for me. Not one......and Im about fed up. I see NO integrity or character in the majority of leadership persons who take that side of the aisle. Its the politics of freedom....vs the politics of control. Were just about one event away from .......chaos in this country. The two sides cannot work together.....and one is gonna finally rise up and knock the crap outta the other one and just take over. And I don't think its that far away. This country is far far from the place it started out.....and the mind sets of the two parties are completely at odds. The pattern is already there........we are just waiting to fall into it again. Bi-partisanship is a myth. It will never happen.

As for my faith......its NOT in the governments of this world. His word, voice and spirit are my chief concerns.......as well as my hope which will be realized in the end. That is truly the side I am on. When I look up.....and call HIM, there is love. I love HIM because I am aware of HIS love for me. I am tuned into HIS voice to me and HE is always seeking my good. Then, because of that relationship.....I am able to share with my fellow man. But Jesus is not political.


And i'm sure Jesus is very proud that you don't believe comprise can ever happen and that you think one side should knock the crap out of the other.

Yep, I'm sure he's really proud of you and how you stand behind war-mongers even though he preached peace.

Yep. Very proud.

[Senormac]

And i'm sure Jesus is very proud that you don't believe compromise can ever happen and that you think one side should knock the crap out of the other..

...not "should"......IS going to

Yep, I'm sure he's really proud of you and how you stand behind war-mongers even though he preached peace.
Yep. Very proud.

I have been reading alot on this subject lately and I'm not so sure He did preach peace. He preached OBEDIENCE first and foremost, which is why HE went to the cross. If you remember your sunday school.....HE didn't want to do it. It was a terrible work to do. HE even asked.."If this cup may pass from me, let it .....never the less, not my will be done, but yours"

Don't get me wrong Mae......I want peace. I love peace......but this world is not destined for a peaceful ending. Peace is on the other side.

[Senormac]

Well, that's just the point, Senor.

Jesus is not political. It's all about the values and the support we bring to one another. I do not believe Jesus would ever choose Republicans over Democrats, nor would be be likely to align one faction as His enemy..

Nor do I Unc. HE died even for the Muslims.....dems and repubs are probably not much concern to HIM. HE is the head of a third party and thats the only party I think HE cares about. HE did say once, you're either with me or your against me.

I find it interesting that expression before a person dies....."make your peace with God". Its so true.

But it is no longer good enough - or healthy - to see which party is doing good for you or me. We need to look at a bigger picture. What is good for all of us. As individuals; as Americans; as members of the human brotherhood.
We agree Rush is destructive. Sadly, that destruction you seemingly endorse is the very essence of what is eating at us as a united people. Hardly in keeping with the Message of Love.

When in the history of the planet has there ever been peace Unc?? There never has. Sure, there may have been pockets of people who lived in relative peace....for a short time.......but not universally. Its a John Lennon pipe dream.


I simply believe God helps those who help themselves. We made this bloody mess. It's up to all of us to fix it, before we have the right present ourselves respectfully to Him.

It can't be fixed. There are too many people continually breaking it in the world. And as people come to that conclusion, as they grow older, the realization that HE is the only one who can fix will also come into focus hopefully. The right to present ourselves to HIM only comes by accepting HIS way. And HIS way is through JESUS. Its so simple anyone on the planet can do it. Simple is peaceful.

[UNCLEagent]

You speak of submission.

And strangley, it is the very same message of those declared to be our enemies.

I would hope not to tremble before Gods, nor cower in shame and weakness. I chose to live my life in such a way as to be proud someday to look Him in the face, should I be afforded the opportunity. My life would have to be about my successes and my failures. Not my submissions.

I do believe 'peace' is a pipe dream. And maybe it never will be fixed.

But the world changes first with how we think. We can't cahneg how others think. But we can start believing in ourselves.

Instead of deferring it all to God.

Did He not make us in His image?

Is it asking so much that we begin living our lives - in our hearts - as He would have it?

[tstone]

You look where the human race started. You look where it is now. Almost complete improvement and advancement from our "nasty, brutish and short" beginnings. Long way from perfect, long way to go, very long. But the idea that nothing can be done was not propogated by the people who, over the centuries, defied the naysayers.

God may have helped and inspired them, but they didn't accomplish what they did by throwing their hands up in the air and saying, it's all up to him.

Because when it does work right, or when it works wrong, usually, it's us to blame.

Either way, we have to do the heavy lifting.

The Dems don't know the answer, but the combo of Republican cheerleading, no matter what they say, and Bible banging, as if God is a Republican...and whitetemplar's "WE GOTTA WIN!", as if this was a football game, and he was captain of the cheerleaders (funny, that's what Bush did)...

...sigh...that's all I've got.

[UNCLEagent]

meh - go shoot a Commie!

[Queen Mae]

You speak of submission.

And strangley, it is the very same message of those declared to be our enemies.

I would hope not to tremble before Gods, nor cower in shame and weakness. I chose to live my life in such a way as to be proud someday to look Him in the face, should I be afforded the opportunity. My life would have to be about my successes and my failures. Not my submissions.

I do believe 'peace' is a pipe dream. And maybe it never will be fixed.

But the world changes first with how we think. We can't cahneg how others think. But we can start believing in ourselves.

Instead of deferring it all to God.

Did He not make us in His image?

Is it asking so much that we begin living our lives - in our hearts - as He would have it?

Completely agreed.

[whitetemplar78]

The Dems don't know the answer, but the combo of Republican cheerleading, no matter what they say, and Bible banging, as if God is a Republican...and whitetemplar's "WE GOTTA WIN!", as if this was a football game, and he was captain of the cheerleaders (funny, that's what Bush did)...

...sigh...that's all I've got.

Wow.....captain of the cheerleaders huh?.......I slept with one if that counts I guess, but that’s the closest I ever got to cheerleading. Wanting to win a conflict, last I checked doesn't make me a cheerleader, trying to show that winning is ALWAYS a better choice, then walking away, doesn't make me a cheerleader, and wanting to win this, having shown that all the men, and women that have died there did not die in vain, does not make me a cheerleader. Christ man, your in the service, do you want to go to those families of the 3500 that have fallen, and tell them that hey, sorry they died, but we're spending too much money, and damn its getting tough to win this, sorry maybe next time.......or maybe, just maybe it would be nice, to stand firm, as a strong nation, and validate those heroic deaths by seeing this through to the end.

This isn't a game; this isn't some hot headed debate, where we can call each other names, and most of all this isn't some political tool, that can be used by either party to win a election. We are talking about a WAR, something that isn't nice, isn't fair, and isn't fucking easy, people die, innocents die, homes are lost, families broken apart, and all of us, sitting in our nice comfortable life’s whine about it, like we have any idea what its really like right there on the ground. Why do you think most, not ALL, but most military people support this?......cause a large portion have seen this hell up close, and know what’s at stake. The FACTS are this, we leave now, then guess what, America has just caused genocide.........accept it, its not a matter for debate, its a fact of history, these people hate each other with a passion that borders on holy, who gives a fuck how it started.....did we do it, YES WE DID, and how can we be the leader of the free world, and a 'GREAT" nation if we turn our backs on these people, and let them slaughter each other with out stopping till one sides gone forever. How can any of us, as Americans, hell as humans look in the mirror, and not feel ill knowing we could have stopped it.
The only way we can stop this, is make Iraq stable, cause if we fail in that, then Iran WILL move, not if, maybe, or lets see.......they WILL move, then Turkey will, then Syria, then the Sunni Nations, and lions and tigers and bear oh fucking my!!.....then kiss your car goodbye, cause oil.......it'll reach Mars with its price hike, and then kiss the economy goodbye, kiss strong western nation goodbye, and kiss your ass good bye, cause guess what, at that point this goes global.

Now let me make it clear, I did not attack anyone, I didn't call names, so please return the favor, too many debates here fall apart because of that, address my points, and show me how it can go another direction, cause when it comes down too it, im not a right winger, im not a war hawk, or a neo con, im someone that wants to keep this conflict from coming over here , to our shores, and as stated above I don't think wanting to win, and keeping it that way is a form of cheerleading....thank you, and I hope for some good replies.

[Outsydr]

Christ man, your in the service, do you want to go to those families of the 3500 that have fallen, and tell them that hey, sorry they died, but we're spending too much money, and damn its getting tough to win this, sorry maybe next time.......or maybe, just maybe it would be nice, to stand firm, as a strong nation, and validate those heroic deaths by seeing this through to the end.


But see, this is what some people don't seem to get. It's too late for "this" to be anything but a waste because THAT'S ALL IT EVER WAS!!!

We shouldn't have been there in the first fucking place, so any person to die in pursuit of whatever the hell we're committed to do there has been a wasted life! By trying to argue that its important to stay the course in order for those lost lives to mean something is little more than an effort to put an honorable spit shine on a turd. By selling the effort to stay there as anything more than squeezing more dollars out of that country and covering up a blunder is an insult to the intelligence and lives of every person that sacrificed for "this". Iraq was and continues to be a bullshit business venture, and some people just keep on a'sippin the Kool Aid Bush is serving in the hope that they'll stay drunk enough on it to keep their image of it from changing.

I've seen a lot of interpretation about what Jesus would think of all this. But when I read statements like "HE did say once, you're either with me or your against me" and "this world is not destined for a peaceful ending" all in the same argument as someone supporting the Iraq war, what I'm seeing under that is an attempt to glue Jesus to an opinion instead of admitting that Jesus and that same opinion can't intermingle.

I'm seeing someone trying to mix oil with water, and it's really disturbing.

[tstone]

Here's the bottom line.

Not all wars can be won.

True dat.

Some wars are more complicated than others, but ALL of them require skill in multiple arenas. And in some of them, like Iraq, military superiority doesn't count quite as much.

In Iraq, we have overwhelming military superiority. But we are no closer to "winning" than when this started.

I'm of the opinion it's not the time to give this up yet, but I say bullshit to all who say we need to hang in this because American blood has been spilled.

We chose to spill it, no one forced this on us. And how are we doing those who were wounded and died justice by unnecessarily adding more to the very deep hole we seem intent on filling?

I'm for staying in for now, because I'm not yet convinced this is a lost cause. But I have two fears...

1. That I may be wrong. And more will die needlessly.

2. That I may be right, and the trigger happy among us will take that as a blue print on how this should be done in the future.

So, right or wrong, it's possible to be screwed no matter what.

[MPG]

Christ man, your in the service, do you want to go to those families of the 3500 that have fallen, and tell them that hey, sorry they died, but we're spending too much money, and damn its getting tough to win this, sorry maybe next time.......or maybe, just maybe it would be nice, to stand firm, as a strong nation, and validate those heroic deaths by seeing this through to the end.
So are you going to visit the families of 10000 who are going to die in the process of trying to "win" this war before it has finally become apparent to everyone that it is unwinnable, and are you going to tell them "Well, your sons/brothers/husbands/fathers just had to die, because we had to validate other people's deaths by trying to win this war!"?

But your argument already falls apart one step before that, because you talk about some heroic deaths. There wasn't a single heroic death in this whole war. There wasn't anything heroic about this war, there isn't, and there never will be anything heroic about it.
We are talking about a WAR, something that isn't nice, isn't fair, and isn't fucking easy, people die, innocents die, homes are lost, families broken apart, and all of us, sitting in our nice comfortable life’s whine about it, like we have any idea what its really like right there on the ground.
I think I have a pretty good idea what it's like, which is the main reason why I want it to stop.
Why do you think most, not ALL, but most military people support this?
Well, perhaps for the same reason why they joined the military in the first place?

I somehow don't think that the people who will lead this war should be the one to decide if the war should go on. You'll have to ask the people who could end up being the dead innocents. They are the ones who should decide. Did you ask them about their opinion?
How can any of us, as Americans, hell as humans look in the mirror, and not feel ill knowing we could have stopped it.
Oh, there are so many things that people should feel ill about. There are people starving all over the world, and I don't even know how many millions and millions of them could have been saved by the billions of Dollars that have already been burned in this war. Why don't people feel ill about that? There's real money that could have helped and could still help millions of real people with a 100% probability. I sort of prefer that over some idealistic crusade to "validate the death" of 3500 people by trying to win a war that can't be won with 99% probability.
im not a war hawk
:headscratch: