4:9 - The Shape of Things to Come - Ben (Spoilers & Spec)

[The Tyrant Virus]

Hope I'm not overstepping my boundaries by starting this thread, but there wasn't one yet, and just...WOW.

That episode was INSANE. I can't believe the brutality of some of it. In the midst of everything, I kept having a bad feeling that Sawyer was gonna die, and I still have that feeling. I really hope he doesn't, especially now that his character is evolving beyond just the selfish douche bag. If he does die, I hope he at least goes out heroically, kind of like Boromir in FotR.

Anyway, that conversation between Ben and Whidmore at the end...I can't wait to find out exactly what they were talking about. And just how did Ben end up out in the middle of the Sahara Desert? A space/time rift of some kind? This season has been nothing short of amazing so far.

[Jakester]

I don't know about Sawyer being a selfish douche -- he did go rescue Claire.

Obviously, in the battle for thie island, neither Ben or Widmore can kill each other, and they had an agreement to not harm each other's family. Now we're running headfirst into a confrontation with Desmond and Ben.

We also know that Ben can at least partially control the smoke monster. But what is it? And is Rousseau really dead?

[The Tyrant Virus]

I don't know about Sawyer being a selfish douche -- he did go rescue Claire.

That's what I was saying...he's becoming better than that. In fact, his actions in this episode were actually pretty selfless. His time with Hurley has really done wonders for his character.

[Strider]

Damn. That episode was crazy!

Poor Alex. :(

[The Tyrant Virus]

Poor Alex. :(

Yeah, that was hardcore that they just killed her like that. I forgot to mention how great of a character Ben is. He's so complex, it's great.

[Still Crazy]

So is there a game Widmore and Ben are playing with the island?
I can't believe Ben has become the pivotal character in the story, not bad for a bit part Mr. Emerson.

And Ben controls the smoke monster, what is the smoke monster.
Where do I get me one.

[mckracken]

yeah Sawyer's warning to Locke about him harming Hurley or placing Hurley in harms way sent shivers up my spine, Sawyer has NO love for ben whatsoever, I dont think Locke does either, its just that he (Locke) wants to keep Ben alive long anough to get the LOSTAWAYS rescued, I dont think Locke would leave the island if he could anyway.

As for Ben, i was wondering, was ALL of this episode a "flash forward" (the part with Sayid was thats for sure) or did Ben instantly leap to London England to confront Charles Widmore when he locked himself inside his secret room to control the smoke monster???

Why cant Ben kill Charles? is it a physical barrier or an agreement? the agreement would seem to be null and void after Charles killed Alex (if she's dead)

also what happened to the remaining Losties at the compound, three died but how many went with Locke and crew? Over half I thought, where are the rest?

as for danielle Roussseiu, her part in LOST has been growing prety steadily into a series regular, it could be that she'll take a back seat again and only show up as a ghost (kinda like Walt shows up from time to time)
Harold P. is really earning his series regular paycheck, that dude (Michael) has only been in one episode so far and he gets full credit for the entire fourth season???

[alaristhered]

Shit. I have to watch this one again. I totally agree - Sawyer's friendship with Hurley has completely made him a better person. Even as far back as when Charlie died, he showed compassion and empathy in way that was very touching.

BTW - my sister named her son Benjamin. She said to me, "I mean, that's a good name, right? Everyone you know who is named Benjamin is a good guy, right?"

I said, "Ummmmm...."

And she kind of realized what I was going for and continued, "I mean, Benjamin Linus is a manipulative, lying, murdering bastard, but he's GOOD at it, you know what I mean?"

LOL!

[sickness]

So is there a game Widmore and Ben are playing with the island?
I can't believe Ben has become the pivotal character in the story, not bad for a bit part Mr. Emerson.

And Ben controls the smoke monster, what is the smoke monster.
Where do I get me one.
If Ben controls the smoke monster rather than is able to "direct" its will by playing to his instincts, then he's not really in control of it at all. This is what I gathered from the necessity for everyone to run when it was busy with the mercs.

[DarkJedi]

Shit. I have to watch this one again. I totally agree - Sawyer's friendship with Hurley has completely made him a better person. Even as far back as when Charlie died, he showed compassion and empathy in way that was very touching.

BTW - my sister named her son Benjamin. She said to me, "I mean, that's a good name, right? Everyone you know who is named Benjamin is a good guy, right?"

I said, "Ummmmm...."

And she kind of realized what I was going for and continued, "I mean, Benjamin Linus is a manipulative, lying, murdering bastard, but he's GOOD at it, you know what I mean?"

LOL!

LMAO!

That was classic, Red.

And I agree with what people here are saying about both Sawyer and Ben. Ben's becoming a great complex character...

And Sawyer...wow, what a change with his character.

My older sister was shitting kittens when they pointed the guns at him in this episode. In shows of the past, we would say "Yeah, right, they won't kill him off".

But it seems the death toll is adding up over here and nobody really feels safe if we haven't seen their flash forward by now.

When they pointed the gun to Sawyer....there was "Nooooooooooo" thoughts going on.

Alex's death was brutal as well.

Great season so far. Superb writing and storytelling. Loving it.

[Jakester]

EW's review is online, and it's really good. The reviewer knows more about Team Jack, though, and wouldn't spill, the jerk.

[alaristhered]

And OMG - we've never seen Ben have such an emotional connection to anything or anyone - and then when he was sitting near Alex's body - there was no one around watching for him to manipulate, that was just pure, honest grief.

Compared to his conversation with Sayid, in which you think, "Well, MAYBE he's being sincere" and then he smirks as he walks away from Sayid!

The one question that is driving me crazy is WHO ARE THE OTHERS. Yes, finding out more about Widmore was awesome. Yes, realizing that Ben actually DIDN'T send Rousseau and Carl to their deaths was revealing. But shoot, humans - who are the others? They were there first! Before Ben, presumably before Widmore. Still don't know who they are.

[Little Nell]

I'm so confused about Ben. His actions this week seem to suggest that he's been telling the truth, that his violence and manipulations have all been about accomplishing the greater good. For example, he stole Alex from Russeau, but in his words he took her from a crazy woman (ultimately saving Alex from a terrible fate.)

But, then he checks himself into the hotel as Moriarty, and the clerk, upon hearing that name, looks afraid. Names have been symbolic on this show and Moriarty is the name of Sherlock Holmes' evil brother. The Moriarty character was also highly intelligent and manipulative. But, he was a sociopath, his actions guided by pure self-interest. It wasn't surprising that Ben showed up at Whidmore's talking about "games" which is what Sherlock Holmes always called the deadly serious business of catching murderers.

Whidmore called Ben "boy" and said he knew what he was. If Ben is meant to be closer to Penney and Desmond's age then I guess that would make sense. Then he said he knew what Ben was. Did he mean mass murderer (which Ben is) or did he mean something more along the lines of Walt (which Ben could be)?

[fastcar]

WTF OMG

nuff said.

Actually, I wonder if Sawyer will go out like Boromir....he seems to be alot like his character alignment. Part Boromir, part Han Solo. He really has stepped up in terms of moral fiber. Kate would probably be all gooey, right now.

Ben is like the devil. Even if you hate him, you have to respect him. He's such a badass. He seemed like such a strategist so far, but the way he turned the tables on the two in the desert was frickin awesome. "Oh, so you do speak English."

And why the hell was he wearing a parka?

[Jakester]

I think he was wearing the parka because he teleported into Iraq, and the process requires that things be COLD. Also, did you notice his injured arm? I assume that teleportation is not without its hazards.

[fastcar]

I was thinking that he got shot as he left.

[Jakester]

Nah...remember dude from the training videos? He did that Orchid video and had lost an arm.

[fastcar]

Candle, Halliwax, Wickmund? Yeah, he was wearing the guy's coat.
I'm guessing that the Orchid Station video was made before the others.




Also, I just hope Goddard was paying homage and not dipping in the well of Whedon for the Risk scene. I knew that had "Chosen" written all over it.

"I used to be a highly respected Watcher, and now I'm a wounded dwarf with the mystical strength of a doily."

[alaristhered]

If Ben is Moriarty, then who is Sherlock? And to ask something I've asked a lot in the past, who is Moses to Claire's little baby Aaron? So many questions!

[fastcar]

It's either Jack or Locke as Moses.....mayhaps even Ben.

[Little Nell]

I would say it's Locke as Moses. In the story, Moses led the Israelies for years, but then royally screwed up and wasn't allowed to enter the promised land. Locke strikes me as the type who would screw up and miss out on his greatest desire.

But then again, that could describe Ben.

[Jakester]

Uhh...guys? Wrong Moriarty. Ben's alias refers to this one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Moriarty)

[neglet]

Well, that's no fun. Although Neal Cassady (the inspiration for Dean Moriarty) was totally screwed up as far as family relationships and drugs, he wasn't an evil nemesis.

Could Ben be thinking he is "on the road"?

[Jakester]

That'd be my guess. Ben keeps saying that the Others are the good guys. I think he really believes that, and, consequently, I doubt he'd really identify with Holmes' Moriarty (except for being very, very clever).

Interesting to note that the only thing to really shock Ben was Alex's execution -- and possibly the fact that Locke heard Jacob. It appears as though Ben is privy some knowledge of future events, as nothing else has surprised him.

[alaristhered]

Well, in the Old Testament/Torah, Benjamin is the youngest son of Jacob. Just a thought...

[Jakester]

Yeah. There's that, too!

[alaristhered]

Has anyone been able to find any significance to Richard's name? Because he is the guy I'm most curious about.

[colmatrix]

It's getting a little confusing to keep up with...I hope they don't pull an Ailas with this show. It's not even close yet, and it is still my second favorite show after BSG. How cool was Ben in the desert with the baton? Awesome! I don't think he transported anywhere, because he was doing whatever he did to bring the smoke monster. Not enough time. Unless the transporter is also a time machine. Which would rule!

[mckracken]

I would say it's Locke as Moses. In the story, Moses led the Israelies for [40] years, but then royally screwed up and wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

Moses saw the Promise Land, then died of old age. I dont think he "royally screwed up", God was jut purging one generation from entering the Promise Land. Moses was the last, after he died, the Israelites sent the spies in.

[Strider]

Perhaps Ben discovered the Enterprise buried underneath the island and figured out how to use the transporters. :wink:

[Little Nell]

Moses saw the Promise Land, then died of old age. I dont think he "royally screwed up", God was jut purging one generation from entering the Promise Land. Moses was the last, after he died, the Israelites sent the spies in.

According to the story, Moses wasn't allowed to enter because he took credit for bringing water out of a rock instead of giving credit to God. (Numbers 20:12 - I had to look the actual book thingy up)

What you mention might have been what happened in reality (he was just too old to fight any more battles), but the story gives a supernatural reason.

[Jakester]

have been what happened in reality (he was just too old to fight any more battles), but the story gives a supernatural reason.

Better give Sam and Dean a call!

[alaristhered]

Either that or he found the Tardis. After all, time distortion is involved!

[mckracken]

last nights episode gives a very important clue to the coming series finale...
when Sun and Jin are in the medical station, "where is all this power coming from?" the boat lady comments, "thats another important question for the books"

yes.. yes it is kiddies... very important indeed.

[mckracken]

also hurley's comments about the oceanic six actually being dead, that Charlie told hurley that Jack would soon have a visitor.

creepy stuff. Why theres no mention of any of the Oceanic six wanting to go back to the island for a rescue is beyond me, but last night's episode clearly showns the unraveling of jack into where we saw him at the tail end of last season.

[alaristhered]

Ummm...just deleted off both our HD DVR and TiVo (long story) but I don't recall Hurley saying Charlie TOLD HIM that they were all dead. I just remember him saying he figured out that they were all dead when Charlie visited him.

This whole episode I was trying to figure out in what sequence all the flash fowards were, but the ending proved that this was the beginning of Jack's breakdown and BEFORE the very first flash foward we saw.

Still - who are the others? I will probably go to my grave asking that question.

[mckracken]

sorry that was a typo.fixed

[alaristhered]

A typo implies IMPERFECTION...IMPERFECTION...DALEKS MUST DESTROY MCKRACKEN...

:-)

[fastcar]

Ex Term In Ate

[mckracken]

isnt that EX-term in 08? i thought that was speaking of our President Butthead?

"yes they eventually lost in overtime... FOUR ROUNDS of overtime!!!"
GO SHARKS - NEXT SEASON STANLEY IS OURS!

[Metuzalem]

LOVED IT.

One of my favourites ever I think.

I knew they were playing Risk at the start.

We know there is a good chance of there being wormhole generator on the island (in the Orchid station) so that would explain the teleportation and time travel.

As for why Ben can't kill Charles......
We're told that the island is a Rube-Goldberg device and that certain cogs and wheels in said device have to turn before events happen. For example, that is why Micheal couldn't kill himself - he was still a cog in the machine. The island needs him to do something before he can die. Maybe this is what is going on here. The machine needs Charles. On a quantum level, the probablities of the time and method of his death are 100%. Ben could pull a knife and try to stab Charles but it wouldn't work.

[mckracken]

As for why Ben can't kill Charles......
We're told that the island is a Rube-Goldberg device and that certain cogs and wheels in said device have to turn before events happen. For example, that is why Micheal couldn't kill himself - he was still a cog in the machine. The island needs him to do something before he can die. Maybe this is what is going on here. The machine needs Charles. On a quantum level, the probablities of the time and method of his death are 100%. Ben could pull a knife and try to stab Charles but it wouldn't work.

yeah that makes sense, i still would have prefered michael to have come back into the story without any outside "help" from The others though, that would make the rube goldberg theory a little more interesting if the people-cogs were turning and it only seemed like the people thought they were operating totally out of free will instead of being told what to do, why to do it, and that they cant kill themselves or each other by The Others, but the larger picture was that the island was influencing their lives and they (like Michael) were always pawns despite his best effort to be something he's not...he was always a pawn in a game.

[alaristhered]

Seriously, McKracken, mistakes will NOT be tolerated on this board. I'm recommending that your line be boxed. :-)

[Jakester]

Oh my. Can my line go in your box?