War in Georgia

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Russian tanks have entered Georgia after fire was exchanged in the seperatist region between Georgian forces and seperatists which allegedly killed some Russian peacekeepers. Russia has long been involved in dodgy dealing with regards the seperatist movement.

Russian planes have bombed targets in Georgia, Georgia has shot two down.

Georgia is awaiting membership of NATO and acsension to the EU so this could get ugly, quickly !

[Jakester]

Really? I hope Traz and ID get out of ATL soon!

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

I don't think REM have anything to do with this one !!

The Georgian President has said the Russian presence is considered as an act of war.

[Senormac]

The scary thing about this is that Georgia.....who separated from Russia....has an area inside it, Ossetia, that wants to succeed from it. The Ruskies have been funneling money and other sorts of anti-Georgian sentiment into Ossetia for years, and just waiting for a chance to control both those areas again.

World peace.....HAH! Its a pipe dream. This is why I am opposed to anyone who thinks that the U.S. should NOT have a strong military.

[tstone]

I'm an advocate for world peace AND a strong military.

[JarrodSarafin]

This is sad but not shocking as many of you know. Russia has been slowly trying to build itself back to its former Soviet persona for years.

We can hope that Russia listens to the EU, Nato, the U.N and everyone else and stops bombing Georgia..but it's doubtful they're going to listen to any of these calls for peace.

They want that territory back into its motherland and no protest is going stop them.

[Space Tycoon]

Georgia is hardly innocent. Russia backs it's ethnic brothers in South Ossetia; while the US has pumped millions of dollars into Georgia's somewhat democratic government, to build up it's military.

Both side are vying for control over former Soviet territories, for the usual reasons. (http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=380) The difference is that IT"S NOT OUR REGION. This is Russia's backyard, not America's.

Moscow argues, if Kosovo can separate from Serbia and become a de facto US colony, why can't the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia rejoin their Russian kin?



Well?






.

[Senormac]

Well they can spacey.....and I'm not siding with either the Ruskies OR the Georgians....but aren't they kind of an island of land in the middle of Georgia? Kind of like if Colorado wanted to succeed.....they are surrounded by the rest of the US.
This one is definately none of our business.....however....with lots of troops already over in that part of the world.......thoughts of Armeggeddon and the militaries of the world converging keep popping up in my imagination. If the Soviets get that power hungry spirit taking control of its leadership again......we are gonna see some very Biblical stuff going down in the next few years.

[Senormac]

I just heard that Russia is pissed at us for transporting Georgian troops from Iraq (or Afganistan) back home to defend themselves against the invading Ruskies......ha ha hah......they are mad at us. Like big deal.....you are not our friends. The iron curtain has only been down since Reagan......and thats not too long. Old KGB attitudes run deep I think.

[Jakester]

...Kind of like if Colorado wanted to succeed.....

When did we start wanting Colorado to fail?

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

NATO wasn't covertly and actively stirring up ethnic tension in Kosovo to provoke a Serbian reaction. Russia was. Georgia wasn't partaking in aggressive ethnic cleansing in Ossetia like the Serbian regime was in Kosovo.

Apples, oranges.

Considering the amount of force the Russians had mobilised and ready it is quite clear they were spoiling for this scrap. And if this is about Ossetia then why are they driving for Tibilisi and spearheading an advance through Abkhazia in West, across the country.

This is naked aggression thinly disguised behind an excuse of the seperatist struggle. The Russian Bear flexing it's muscles
whilst slapping down an ex part of it's empire that wanted closer ties to the West.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

And it looks like the pressure might have made them realise everyone has seen right through it. Medvedev is making the right noises now.

[Graymatter]

Yes, he's meowing like a tabby cat.

[JarrodSarafin]

Yes..but what is Czar Putin doing while the cat is retracting his claws?

[Space Tycoon]

NATO wasn't covertly and actively stirring up ethnic tension in Kosovo to provoke a Serbian reaction.

Actually, the US government, particularly the CIA, was doing precisely that through their covert support for the KLA, branded a "terrorist" group by many governments:

Kosovo new American protectorate (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:CvMQjG2HmjcJ:www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/390745.html+US+kosovo+covert+support+kla&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=ca)

Chronology of Balkan conflict (http://www.rmbowman.com/isss/kosovo.htm)


And if this is about Ossetia then why are they driving for Tibilisi and spearheading an advance through Abkhazia in West, across the country.

It's about both regions, actually. Both of which have had semi-autonomous status, recognized by many governments, since 1991, when they declared independence.

This is naked aggression thinly disguised behind an excuse of the seperatist struggle. The Russian Bear flexing it's muscles
whilst slapping down an ex part of it's empire that wanted closer ties to the West.

Nothing excuses the extremes of Russia's assault. I'm as critical of the Putinists as anyone. But what do we call it when Georgian forces marched into Ossetia and Abkhazia? From the Russian point of view, right or wrong, they were responding to naked aggression against their kin, not instigating it. Russians can only be provoked so far. Eventually they will strike back.

And by the way, where was all this concern from the US government when the Chechens were being inhumanly crushed by these same Russians?

Since the fall of the USSR the US has been following a policy of strategic political, economic, and even military encirclement of Russia. The US has been backing governments from Poland to Kyrgyzstan, interfering in their internal political process, and has even backed some truly awful regimes like the one in Uzbekistan--all in the name of promoting "democracy and freedom."

Bush Sr. promised Mikhail Gorbachev that he wouldn't expand NATO if the Soviet Union collapsed. However, both of his successors have done just that, with a vengeance. Russians see this as a betrayal, and welcome Putin's ballsy performance on the world stage.

History has made them rightly paranoid about outsiders, and US policy has played right in to that fear.






.

[Space Tycoon]

Looks like the Georgians really were asking for this:

Reports of Georgian atrocities not covered by mainstream media (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/11/2331118.htm)






.

[Space Tycoon]

Fortunately, not everyone's going to suffer. In fact, some folks are going to do quite nicely, thank you very much:

Georgian war a boon for military-industrial-complex firms (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121884933721146317.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

Some Wall Street stock analysts early on saw the invasion as reason to make bullish calls on the defense sector. A report from JSA Research in Newport, R.I., earlier in the week called the invasion "a bell-ringer for defense stocks."


Corporate Socialism at it's finest. :ohwell:




.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Good and astute points on all fronts. However the Russians have seriously overplayed their hand. Had they stopped with South Ossetia then they would have got away with it. The incursion into Georgia itself is what has left them in trouble.

And rest assured, they are in trouble. Poland and the Ukraine are already making their moves. Estonia and Lithuania are in panic and when even the French and the German's start moving and talking tough then you know you are in trouble :D

Russia is surprised by the reactions as it had considered Europe weak and the US distracted however both areas remember the Cold War and are in no doubt that the best defence is to slap down a resurgent Bear very early in the proceedings. Former USSR states have no desire to rejoin the experiement either.

Russia is also highly, highly reliable on it's trading partners in the West and whilst there is much talk about using oil and gas a weapon the trade situation is a two way street and Russia probably has more to lose.

[Metuzalem]

It was only a matter of time....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v731/Metuzalem/Georgia.jpg

[Space Tycoon]

I would say that it is the Bush Administration that has the most of the egg on it's face at this time. Much of the world is silently cheering on Putin's defiance of Washington, even if they have no stake in the Georgia conflict. Most nations would agree that Russia's conduct has been disproportionate. However, very few believe the US has the moral authority to lecture others about "naked aggression" anymore.

With the exceptions of Albania, perhaps. :smirk:

Russia will come out of this both weaker and stronger. Weaker in the sense that normal economic and political relations with the vast Western market are probably history; or at least strained as they have not been since the 80's. Stronger, in that the era of treating Russia like a failed third world state, to be used and exploited, are also over. Moscow voice is loud and clear: "We are back, and you had damned well better respect us."

The war in Georgia can be seen as post-Soviet Russia's War of Independence.

Nothing will be quite the same after this. Getting Moscow's help to negotiate a multi-party solution to the Iran nuclear controversy is probably a lost cause. As is working together to secure and reduce the former Soviet nuclear arsenal, (http://nunn-lugar.com/) an issue of vital importance in the age of apocalyptic terrorism. And forget about trying to reduce Russian arms sales to Israel's enemies in the Middle East. Why should we? They will ask.

The worst thing about this "Cold War II," if that's what it is, is that it really didn't have to happen. Russia isn't trying to take over the world. They're not spreading poisonous Marxist ideology, fomenting global revolution, or sending millions of their own citizens to labour/death camps. Those days are over.

There are many real and tangible reasons to be concerned about the New Russia. But the damage does not need to be permanent. There is still time for the next US administration to repair the damage done so far.





.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh and Metuzalem, that is hilarious. My dad's convinced it's a put up job, though.






.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

I disagree. The speed of response, the uniformity of response, the telling silence from supposed Russian allies and the harshness of the language used across the board from the international community demonstrates a suprising resiliance to not allow Russia to start flexing it's muscles again on the borders of Europe.

With the Poles signing the missile defence treaty straight away, the Ukraine offering up early warning real estate practically before the dust has settled and Turkey limiting Black Sea fleet access the only real losers in this (at the moment) are the Georgians and the Russians.

If Russia doesn't want missile defence batteries on it's doorstep, then it's best recourse is for it to make it's allies in Iran give up the programme then the ball will be in America's court.

[rappites]

Scare tactics.

[Space Tycoon]

Well, like I say, Russia has gained and lost, for sure. Many of their adversaries are in panic mode right now, but I can't help but think that much of the response from Poland and Ukraine is a demonstration of loyalty to their American sponsors (read: masters).

I view this as a clash between two empires: The Russians who are trying to reclaim one that they have lost; and the Americans, who are trying to build one they think they have earned. Eother way it's a dangerous game and a real mess for the next administration to have to deal with






.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh, and as a general observation, I think it's safe to say that the era of US/Russian collaboration in space efforts is probably kaput (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/5951848.html).


You know, it's funny how things turn out. I remember seeing the movie 2010 in 1984, about 24 years ago. The Cold War was about as hot as it had ever been, and nuclear conflict with the Russians was a very real possibility.

In the movie you recall, there is still conflict between US and USSR, with a military crisis escalating to the brink of war over some issue in Central America. The thought of the two superpowers co-operating in space is protrayed as unrealistic, and the two sides display mutual hostility towards each other. In fact a state of war briefly exists in the film, which is only broken by a demonstration of power by advanced alien intelligence.

Flash forward ten years, and by the mid-nineties this scenario seemed laughable. Russia was a struggling capitalist democracy, the US was hip-deep in the International Space Station, and Russia was providing cheap launch services to it's new friends in NASA. Soon we would work together to explore Mars, no doubt. From the point of view of say, 1993, the future as depicted in 2010 couldn't have seemed more off base and dated.

Flash forward yet another decade and a half, and suddenly that movie seems almost prophetic. If Georgia had been a member of NATO, the US, Britain, Canada and France would be obliged to go to war with Russia, plain and simple. It will be interesting to see if the real 2010 bears more of a resemblance to the movie.





.

[tstone]

Yeah, for a crafty bastard, Putin really didn't gain much with this move. The only way I can figure this is working for him, is that he doesn't particularly care.

[whitetemplar78]

You know, a new trend has started in the world today, Bushs fault, or not, it’s become the easy....no...lazy thing to do, blame America....China cheating at the game?...Americas fault, Iran building nukes?...Americas fault, Russia going back to the days of imperialism??....yep, we did that one too.....bullshit
Russia in the post Soviet era just couldn't handle democracy, corruption ran amok, and the system as a whole started to fail, from basic services, to their military, to just keeping their damn nukes in their country!...God only knows why, maybe being under the Czars for so long, and then going directly into a harsh police state, always being told what to do, always not thinking for yourself in terms of your countries destiny and polices, creates a mindset where it’s difficult to think for yourself as a nation......again I don't know, but I find that the two most powerful Communist countries in the last 6 decades are also two nations that were former empires ruled with a heavy hand for centuries.
So it was just a matter of time, before the task masters, and holder of the reins from the old days, slowly eased their way back into control, hell most of them are the only ones that have the knowledge of leading, and running a country.....but hell why go back to the old Iron Bear days, that’s soooooo not in anymore, so lets go back a bit further....back to the days of Imperial Russia.
Spacey you pointed out how America has been hemming in Russia on all sides with NATO, and treaties, and Allies, isn't it possible we have been doing this cause for years we've been watching them, and have seen this growing trend of former Soviet task masters taking up power behind the scenes??...that maybe...just maybe our Government isn’t ALL made up of idiots and that they saw the writing on the wall, and so have slowly been preparing for this day???? You point out how we have broken the trust made, about pushing NATO right up to the borders......didn't they break it also buy turning the TRUE chance at democracy into a sham?...or are you gonna sit here and tell me that their system isn't rigged now???
I mean my God man, they had all those troops ready for some time, this was PLANNED MAN!!< PLANNED, it was a set up, plain and simple, and to compare Kosovo to this??......come on, those people then were facing a system of hostile government that wouldn't have shed a tear if they all died off......oh wait, I forgot, they were helping that scenario along!!!!!, they had to reach for a ally, for a life line, to continue as a people!! Did we funnel money, and weapons into them, to aid them, of course, because they came to us, for that, so they wouldn't be wiped out without a fight!! Allot of people there are alive today because of those actions regardless of why we did it in the first place, and that area is now slowing rebuilding, something positive.... what Russia's been doing isn't even close its naked land grabbing, Empire building, like someone else said...apples and oranges my friend.