Holy crap he picked a woman! (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)

[KingVoyeur]

I would've never thought the GOP would pick a woman as a VP candidate. Guess McCain is really pushing to beat Obama!

McCain picks Alaska Gov. Palin as runningmate (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/29/palin.republican.vp.candidate/index.html)

I wonder if all those die-hard Hillary supporters will switch to McCain now that there's another woman to vote for, just to spite Obama.

[rappites]

That is exactly what he is hoping for.

But, how can he now say that Obama as no experience? When his beauty queen (and she was one) has even much more less.

I am so happy with this pick. He just blew it in the ninth inning with the bases loaded, two outs, two strikes and three balls. Strike three and your out.

IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Al-Dog]

Wow. I had really thought he was going to pick Mitt Romney.
Do see this as a sign that McCain is desperate?
After Obama’s speech last night, he had to be running scared.

[Jakester]

That is exactly what he is hoping for.
It's pretty shrewd. Now, undecided women will be more likely to vote for McCain. This may, or may not, include Hillary supporters, but I would think that serious Dems will still vote along party lines.

But, how can he now say that Obama as no experience? When his beauty queen (and she was one) has even much more less.
What does the "beauty queen" thing have to do with anything? Pretty people can't be intelligent? Geena Davis is/was hot, and is an accomplished archer, and is in Mensa.
And for part 2, VP != President. The official job description of the Vice President is to preside over the Senate and vote in case of a tie. Historically, Vice Presidents are chosen less for their qualifications as President, and more for their ability to help the Presidential nominee get into office. It's exactly what Obama did with Biden.

I am so happy with this pick. He just blew it in the ninth inning with the bases loaded, two outs, two strikes and three balls. Strike three and your out.

IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think if you check with the politicos, you'll find that he did not "blow it," and it's "you're", not "your," Sweetie.

Again, I'm not pro-McCain (or even necessarily Pro-Obama), but you're not even being rational, Rapps.

[JarrodSarafin]

I'm not sure about either candidate here..

But after listening to what Sarah just had to say in Ohio, I'd have to say she's more relatable to the people..She's definitely personal in a public forum.

The big whammies from her first speech for me were:

-Son in Iraq
-Giving props to Hillary

[Kaeos]

Well it's a clear sign that McCain is willing and understands he needs to give up on the experience question all together.

I understand how the Republicans think this is a sure fire win in their column and yeah, maybe some undecided women will rally behind her, but I can't imagine that most won't see this as nothing more than desperate pandering on McCain's part.

It's going to be an interesting 3 months from here on out with the one-up-manship between these two.

[rappites]

Whatever Jakester!!!


He is desperate.

She is a mother of five.

Her baby boy which was born in April has down syndrome.

She hunts.

Opposes gay marriage.

Life long member of NRA.

Husband works for BP oil in the North Slope in Alaska.

Son in Iraq leaving on 9-11

Two years as a Govenor of one of our most least populated states.

Parents were teachers.


Just because I can relate to on some of the issues above and as a mother, someone who played sports, has a child with a disability, someone who knows how to shoot a gun, etc....

That is all the more reason I need to vote for them.

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!


Did you hear McCain speak? Did you see how often he had to look down at his paper while he was giving his speech?? Like his speech was written about the same time he decided on her as his running mate. Did you see how irritated he got when they were singing happy birthday to him?

[Trazalca]

I've been on the fence between the candidates for some time now.
Neither has impressed me all that much. I was impressed, however,
by their VP picks. McCain's is at first stunning, and understandably
desperate, but the more I look into Palin's bio, the less I'm likely to
think choosing her was so arbitrary.

I doubt seriously her road to being governor was a cakewalk.
She's earned her way enough to garner the respect she's got.

The "no-experience" card will no doubt be brought up by the Dems
in response to this move,
but only at the expense of ignoring the elephant in the room.

My goodness, this Presidential campaign is a doozy.
However you look at it, it's fascinating and unprecedented on so
many levels.

Now I just need to learn more on where she stands on a WHOLE LOT
of issues. That still remains to be seen.

[Jakester]

Opposing gay marriage is a big issue for me, but, Rapps, you left off a key factor for her. She's had 5 kids and she's still super HOT!

[rappites]

LOL!!

But, we have not seen the boobs. Her outfit was too dark to determine if she is really hot.

[JarrodSarafin]

I'm right there with you, Trazal. On the fence but in total agreement that this election will be one hell of a doozy between all sides.

Both sides are opposite sides of the spectrum.

One can make very good speeches but hasn't served the country long. The other is lackluster at making speeches but has served the country literally.

One side's VP is a safe choice. The other's VP is not a safe choice.

Back and forth. Back and forth. What's going to be the next surprise.

Should be fun to watch.


lol And yes, Sarah was hot even in the dark outfit. I think it's the fact that she wasn't there making a speech much more than she was actually just talking to the crowd and explaining a bit about her past. Moreso the fact that she has 5 kids and seems down to earth was what made her look hot for me. Down to earth Milf.

[rappites]

If McCain is elected.

Outy and I are moving to Australia with his old high school friend that lives down there.

Because I do not want to live in a country where people want the same old politics. We need new fresh ideas and that comes from Barack.

I wish Sarah was a democrate. I think she is great. I think her and Barack would have made great running mates. A President and a Vice President in their forties with new and fresh ideas on how to change corruption in Washington. I love her good 'ol boy part of her speech.

John McCain is a "Good 'ol Boy" she took a crack at him when she said that.

[Trazalca]

Here's the only beauty queen pic of her online:

http://wonkette.com/images/thumbs/857ee0f0362910b41702a36aef61d082.jpg

Not the greatest pic, but those eyes....

[JarrodSarafin]

I like her better with glasses. But then, I've always had a fetish with glasses on hot intelligent women.

[Jakester]

Ditto, DJ. There are a lot of pictures of her looking hot in glasses.

Rapps, Barack doesn't have the market cornered on fresh ideas, but I'd really like to hear some details on his fresh ideas. Australia's pretty damn cool, but they do have their own share of problems down under, too. Government censorship of movies and games aside, how do you feel about Christmas in the summer?!

[Al-Dog]

Yes, she’s pretty and she has some impressive qualities, but do you really think that McCain thinks she’s the best person for the job? Or is she the only attractive republican female they could find?

If Hilary Clinton hadn’t had such an impressive run or if Obama was a white man she would have never been selected. This is an obviously calculated and blatant act of pandering on McCain’s part.

[rappites]

^^I love you.

[Al-Dog]

^^ :wink:

[neglet]

It's certainly going to make things interesting. Enough people don't care to explore what the candidates' policies really are, they just go by superficialities in picking their candidate. (That's how we ended up with "great guy to have a beer with" instead of "he thinks he's smarter than me" in 2000.) It certainly does shake up the race, making a serious play for female independents. It will be interesting to see what comes out during the next weeks about Palin's background, though.

[Jakester]

No arguments from me, Al. None at all. I completely agree with you.
I don't think that makes her a bad choice, though. She helps increase his electability.

Biden helps increase Obama's electability, too. Look at a few of his qualifications -- he's been in the Senate for what, 20+ years? He knows how Washington works. He knows the power players in DC. He's an average enough Joe (pun unintended) that he commutes to DC every day via train.
Biden's experience in DC makes up for Obama's lack of experience.
That Biden's willing to commute every day to DC on a public train helps offset the charges that Obama is elitist. Where these charges come from, I don't know, but I've heard them throughout the media (not just on Faux News).
Oh, and that Michelle had sleeves on for her keynote speech helped a lot, too. :p

[JarrodSarafin]

Was she wearing a dress, Jake? I didn't see Michelle's speech. Was she wearing a dress or a patented dress suit?

And I think both sides are pandering to a degree so I'm not sure how bad it is about that fact.

Reform? Change?

How??!?!?!

Obama can't bring change no matter what he says without some sort of magical "Senate, you will do what I say" brush.

McCain can't bring change without that same brush.

Just like any presidential race, we have two candidates going on and on about..."Oh, I'm here to bring change to Washington" but once they're in that White House...It's back to the status quo. But hey, at least we're getting pretty speeches and a fun race to watch from both sides.

[Jakester]

It will be interesting to see what comes out during the next weeks about Palin's background, though.
They don't have to dig too far, with those pending allegations that she had her former brother-in law kicked off the police force.

Now, if only we could catch her in something a la The Contender....Mmmm.

[whitetemplar78]

when I read this news, all i could do was laugh, wow, this is amazing, cause when i lived up in Alaska, she was just starting to make a name for herself, and me and my buddy stumbled into a rally for her, lol thinking she was pretty hot, and she could have my vote, among other things, we ended up leaving, pretty impressed with views, and beliefs on both reform, and the need to clean up the fiscal mess Alaska was in at the time. So here I am floored, that this same woman is now running as a VP next to McCain!!?!?! omg....shocked is the least of what im feeling.

But I think this was a damn smart choice, everyone who is saying this is a desperate choice by McCain.....why?? Obama and him are neck and neck, not McCain being blown away, to me this is smart, this balances out quite well. People who think Obama is the man for change, guess what, this girl makes him look like a fat cat sleeping in the same bed as Exxon. She is HUGLY popular up there, and has taken a broom in house, she killed the bridge to no where bill, she cut and trimed the budget close to $400 million with out having to cut services, and has been a strong voice for change in Washington. Which makes me ask this, everyone who screams about the same old, same old, how is this that?...how in the name of god? Shes a outsider, WHICH WE NEED, she is a strong fiscal conseretive, she's not part of the good ole boy club, and is a strong believer in serving the people, not the other way around.

No, this was a smart choice, and no matter how many may scream otherwise, as just taken some wind out of Obama's sails.

[Kaeos]

Barack doesn't have the market cornered on fresh ideas, but I'd really like to hear some details on his fresh ideas.


Dude, I don't mean to nit pick, but did you actually listen to his speech last night? He laid everything out in as much detail as anyone could hope for in the time he had to speak. He was extremely detailed about exactly what he would do and what he would NOT do, "raise your taxes" as opposed to the socialism brush the Republicans have been trying to paint him with, he stated very clear goal and objectives and how he would pay for them.

It's all in there man, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[whitetemplar78]

oh, she did not have her brother in law kicked off the force, he was violent towards his step son, and had been caught using a taser on him. She stayed out of it, till the very end, when she found out members of her family were trying to lean on the cops to have this guy brought back on the force, when she was made aware of everything, she suspended said family member herself, and made it clear that no one would use her office, or connections to her to abuse the system.

[JarrodSarafin]

K-Man,

I think the problem that Jake and myself and some others are having with it is that we have heard these speeches before on change and such.

There is no doubt that last night was a beautiful speech by Obama. He's great at the podium.

But a lot of politicians are.

It's the question of actually doing what they say in their speeches, which has a lot of us questioning both sides. It's always about reform to get the person inside the White House but can they do it and will they? Do they have the ability to go beyond what they say they will do and actually be able to do it once elected?

Or more of the same. Obama's great at the podium. McCain is not great at the podium. Who's going to actually bring this mythical change to Washington that every newcoming presidential electee has been promising for decades?

So, to that, I agree with Jake's comment above. Obama doesn't have market on fresh ideas and reform promises. That's been the mission statement for quite a lot of politicians, winners and losers alike.

[Al-Dog]

when I read this news, all i could do was laugh, wow, this is amazing, cause when i lived up in Alaska, she was just starting to make a name for herself, and me and my buddy stumbled into a rally for her, lol thinking she was pretty hot, and she could have my vote, among other things, we ended up leaving, pretty impressed with views, and beliefs on both reform, and the need to clean up the fiscal mess Alaska was in at the time. So here I am floored, that this same woman is now running as a VP next to McCain!!?!?! omg....shocked is the least of what im feeling.

But I think this was a damn smart choice, everyone who is saying this is a desperate choice by McCain.....why?? Obama and him are neck and neck, not McCain being blown away, to me this is smart, this balances out quite well. People who think Obama is the man for change, guess what, this girl makes him look like a fat cat sleeping in the same bed as Exxon. She is HUGLY popular up there, and has taken a broom in house, she killed the bridge to no where bill, she cut and trimed the budget close to $400 million with out having to cut services, and has been a strong voice for change in Washington. Which makes me ask this, everyone who screams about the same old, same old, how is this that?...how in the name of god? Shes a outsider, WHICH WE NEED, she is a strong fiscal conseretive, she's not part of the good ole boy club, and is a strong believer in serving the people, not the other way around.

No, this was a smart choice, and no matter how many may scream otherwise, as just taken some wind out of Obama's sails.

I not saying that she isn’t qualified or competent or whatever, I just don’t believe that she would have ever gotten the opportunity if Clinton and Obama hadn’t paved the way.

[whitetemplar78]

Oh, I agree Al Dog, but really isn't that what a VP pick is?....shoring up a weakness? Obama was getting hammered over lack of experiance, and poof Biden appears as his running mate. McCain needed to show that he really is a man for change, and a new Washington, and poof here appears Palin. Its all about stratagy, and we have two masters at play here in this election.

[Kaeos]

I think the problem that Jake and myself and some others are having with it is that we have heard these speeches before on change and such.

So for me then, that begs the question man, how are you guys going to choose? Are you going to sit it out? As much as I am rallying behind Obama I have no illusions that my vote carries the TRUE power to elect someone with our genius Electoral College - but I digress.

If you are having trouble now deciding if McCain is really right for the core values you hold, and you are unsure if Obama is everything they say he is, then how will you decide, if at all? What will be the criteria you choose on if you can't beleive what either of them says at the podium?

[JarrodSarafin]

Good question, Kaeos...Good question. It's why I'm adjusting my fence seat for comfortability at the moment.

I'll listen to both sides for the next three months and see if one can convince me over the other.

Now, it's time for me to mosey on over to the skeptical corner. :)

[Intelligent_Design]

WOW!!! Mccain turned 72 today and now This. I'm getting Laura Roslin vibes here. But really I hope this lady is tuff cause this is gonna be Dicey.

[Outsydr]

Well, for those of you that appear to be oh-so-impressed with this selection, allow me to inform you that the folks over at Wikipedia have had to lock down Palin's bio. I heard on NPR this evening that Wikipedia editors noticed today that some 24 hours prior to the announcement, SOMEONE was updating Palin's bio to make her look better. They added more fluff about her "accomplishments", while removed information about her beauty pagaent experiences. Also according to Wikipedia, the all the changes were made by a single user.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94118849

If she's such a "smart choice", then why is SOMEONE feeling as is her credentials need bolstering?

[Kaeos]

Good catch Outy! Not suprised they would be trying to give her a makeover.

But seriously, she is going to sink this ticket with Independents. Sure she will galvanize the hard core Republicans and Conservative, she will lose moderates and independents with her hard line anti-abortion views, her NRA membership card (keep running that tape of her at a riffle range with an AK47 I saw today) among other things.

[whitetemplar78]

lol, wow thats sad, but i guess if you use wikipedia as your only source then you deserve to be misimformed I guess. Though I don't see how this has any bearing on her credentals, or skills. You can go to the State of Alaska's website, and her record is a matter of public record, plus CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, hell most major news sites will have that informaton available. So I don't see how this affects her status as a good, or bad choice, cause some loon job went and changed her info on wikipedia.

[Outsydr]

Well, the thing is Wikipedia is (like it or not) becoming a major repository of knowledge. When I heard about the selection, I (like I'm sure many others) used Google to find out more about this Palin person. And, naturally, the very first hit I got was Wikipedia. Now, I'm smart enough to understand what Wikipedia is and where it gets its information from. But are others???

Considering that we live in a society where people decline to accept Obama because his name SOUNDS like Osama, I'd say nope. So you can dismiss those that take Wikipedia as fact as much as you like. The truth is many Americans, who are not so smart, still have the right to vote.

[Outsydr]

Good catch Outy!

Meh! Right place, right time :)

[mckracken]

135SdtFzV2U
WHO's SARAH PALIN...SHE's SARAH PALIN!!!!!!!!!!

well hey... if i was 72 and looking at 4 years in the white house, she's who I would pick as my VPILF...

shooting Moose in Alaska is really the only entertaining thing to do in Alaska...

[Space Tycoon]

I'm surprised no-one's brought up the issue of geography. AFAIK, there has never been a president or vp from the state of Alaska. The North, which after all is a part of the USA, has never been represented in the Executive branch of the government. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Traditionally both parties have chosen a running mate from another region of the country, to create an impression of inclusion, or a "big tent." JFK chose Johnson, a a rawboned Texan, to contrast his Northeastern liberal image. Similar thinking drove Kerry-Edwards. Reagan-Bush appeared to seal the rift between Western Goldwater conservatives and old money East Coast Rockefeller Republicans. Clinton-Gore was an exception, but you get the picture.

"Okay, but who cares about Alaska?" I hear you say. Answer: increasingly, a lot of people. The North is changing, opening up, becoming far more relevant to policymakers and industry. That non-existent global warming thing has melted much of the pack ice in the Arctic Circle, opening up pathways for shipping. The fabled Northwest Passage is now quite real, and everyone wants a piece of the action: Denmark, Russia, China, as well as the US. Oh, and there's a hell of a lot more in the way of oil and natural gas reserves up there than anyone ever thought.

This is an issue of huge importance up here in Canada. Our beloved (if sparsely populated) Arctic territories are going to become flooded with international shipping and energy exploration concerns. You would think that Canada would be able to enforce it's sovereignty up there, but you would be wrong. This just kind of snuck up on us.

Put this all together, and you have an Arctic region which is going to get very hot, very soon. Oil-rich regions inevitably become zones of conflict and confrontation between great powers, not just the Middle East but around the world. Central Asia, the Caucases, the Horn of Africa, Gulf of Mexico, Spratly Islands...the Arctic Circle will be no different, I assure you. Tommorrow's statesmen/women are going to have to deal with the economic and geopolitical realities of the New North more than their predecessors ever did.

Believe me when I say I would happily see us move towards non-fossil fuel sources asap, but that just isn't going to happen. Petroleum is still very much the lifeblood of the global economy, and will continue to be so for at least the rest of the 21st century or beyond. Sarah Palin could very well be a Presidential contender someday, and being from the North, ensconced in the energy industry, would certainly be a political asset.







.

[TrixieB]

Put this all together, and you have an Arctic region which is going to get very hot, very soon.

Interesting choice of words, Spacey. Palin believes that "global warming" is a crock.

So let's see... pro gun rights, NRA member, militantly pro-choice, anti-environment, pro-creationism, zero foreign policy experience.

The Republican party is thinking that they are going to get women to vote for them just because they have someone on the ticket who has the same genitalia. No true Democratic woman will fall for that. Especially, this one.

[Space Tycoon]

YOu mean "pro-life," I think. :wink:




.

[TrixieB]

Yes, I did. That's what I get for trying to post with only 2 cups of coffee in me! I am militantly pro-choice, not Gov. Palin.

[mckracken]

Trixie, i'm registered Republican and am Pro-Life but i also argue that there are MANY choices that are made BEFORE the choice to ABORT....right? The choice to not have sex? the choice to wear protection? GOD FORBID Making the the choice to keep? the choice to put the child up for adoption? The choice to be a responsible young adult, father or mother, the Choice to not be stupid and take advantage of giving that baby to a shelter, a fire department, a church, a Hospital NO STRINGS ATTACHED, NO QUESTIONS ASKED...there are places to give your baby up for adoption, FREE PLACES, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!..RIGHT?????

WHY ARE MOTHERS STILL HAVING ABORTIONS where there are SO MANY OTHER CHOICES SHE (or the father) COULD HAVE MADE BEFORE AND AFTER GETTING PREGNANT???

and the biggest choice of all...

the choice to PAY FOR YOUR OWN ABORTION?

why am I PAYING (with my Federal, STATE TAXES) FOR OTHERS to make the CHOICE to Kill their children?

sorry but thats MY CHOICE.. perhaps you could convince me that a rape victim has the right to choose an abortion however why the hell are my tax dollars paying for it?

I dont want to have my tax dollars pay for a woman's abortion EVER ......Why is my tax dollars funding this when she didnt explore all her other options first?

you want to be Pro-Choice...great, I have no problem with that... MAKE THE CHOICE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FIRST BEFORE YOU GET PREGNANT!

being Pro-choice is GREAT.... I'm all for the right to control your own fate, your childs fate resides in your hands alone, but your choices arent exclusively limited to Abortion...you have MANY choices.

so dont tell me that "Pro-choice" means "getting an abortion" its much much bigger than that.

[rappites]

McKracken.

Until your body can have a baby...you do not know the bond a mother has with her baby while being pregnant.

If you are raped
If the baby has deformities

ETC....

Do not get me started on this one.

For a man to tell a woman what to do with her body is like raping her.

If a man is telling a woman that she has to have the baby. Then he is raping her of her right to do what she wants with her body.


ARGHHHHHH!!!!!!


So, until you can carry a baby and it is not yours. YOU have no right to say what we can do.

[Jakester]

...and yet, the decision on whether a man has to support the child lies entirely with the woman. So...he has no say on anything? How is that for even remotely being fair or equal? What if the woman wants an abortion, but the man wants a baby? How is it that he can have no rights to the baby? And yet, the same woman can unilaterally decide that he must be forced to care for the baby?

Look, I understand that the pregnancy is a unique situation that men can't experience (the lame case in Oregon (or WA, I forget) notwithstanding), but somehow, when women are shouting for equality, it's a bit hypocritical to maintain compete soverignty over men in the area of reproductive responsibility.

Look at that lady who blew the dude in Florida and saved his semen and artificially inseminated herself. She had a baby and now the man, who had no reasonable expectations of impregnating a woman from oral sex, is responsible for the child because she sued him. He didn't even know she was pregnant until after the baby was born, IIRC. Fair?

Look, I'm pro-choice, but there are a few caveats where I think, maybe the woman shouldn't be the sole arbiter on whether to terminate a child, or whether the man should be responsible for a child that a woman unilaterally decided to have.

[mckracken]

McKracken.

Until your body can have a baby...you do not know the bond a mother has with her baby while being pregnant.
its true I'll never fully realize the bond between a mother and her unborn child, but if she decides to abort the baby, whats that say about the bond?

If you are raped
If the baby has deformities

ETC....

Do not get me started on this one.

ok but i think i started it with Trixie. Theres still no excuse to have an abortion then ask a Pro-Lifer (someone who disagrees with women having an abortion) to pay for that abortion by way of State and Federal taxes is there? Thats what i object to.

For a man to tell a woman what to do with her body is like raping her.

Bullshit. LIKE RAPE? Gime a freakin break rapps. Those two things are not equal.

If a man is telling a woman that she has to have the baby. Then he is raping her of her right to do what she wants with her body.

Is it an entirely different argument to tell a woman to BE RESPONSIBLE with their own body?
At what point does it turn from a MAN telling a WOMAN to be Smart, Reasonable, and Responsible with HER OWN BODY as opposed to telling her she HAS to KEEP the baby? (Mind you Rapps, I never ever said anything like that, I'm not like that. I cant force anyone to do anything, but I can and will ask that they look at all other options and make some logical decisions and be responsible before, durring and after their pregnancy.)

Apparantly when a Man tells a woman to be responsible and make some smart decisions and consider ALL the options then we become total asshole pricks that seek to control her free will and her own body because she just doesnt WANT TO LISTEN TO REASON? SHE DOESNT WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE?

ARGHHHHHH!!!!!!
scream all you want... I'm pro-life. I'm not backing down from this. All I asked is that women take responsibility for the life thats growing inside them and that includes finding another option to murdering it.

So, until you can carry a baby and it is not yours. YOU have no right to say what we can do.

again, bullshit. Its true I cant FORCE you to do anything against your will but I can ask you to be responsible and look at all the other options that present themselves before you take the life of an unborn child.

I cant ask women to be smart, be responsible and reasonable with their own bodies before, durring and after pregnancy?? Bullshit.

AND I should have the right to refuse to pay for YOUR abortion with MY tax dollars.

[NotAFan]

Say how did this thread morph into an argument about abortion? Never talk about abortion or religion! Those are two arguments you are never gonna win! I would like to know why the two groups don't call themsleves what they really are. Pro-life should change their name to "Anti-people killing thier own babies by having them scraped out with a rusty hook". And Pro-choice should change their name to "Anti-being forced by an oppressive government to have a baby that I don't want and/or can't support, and that will most probably be a life-long burden". And the government shouldn't pay for abortions that's just stupid!

[mckracken]

thanks notafan. i think the term "PRO-CHOICE" is the most ambiguous since it is not taken to mean what it claims. There are many choices to consider, options to weigh, decisions to make before, durring and after... I'm all for free-choice, right? YES! But I'm not "PRO-CHOICE" because that actually means the right to legalized abortion.

IE: dont be stupid. make intelligent choices, think and consider that life before you abort.

what irks me is te story coming out of Syracuse this weekend that had it not been for a game of hide-and-go-seek with a 7 year old girl and her Aunt, a baby would have died in the bushes.

WHY?

again, my position: Fire Departments, Churchs and Hospitals offer a "dont ask dont tell" policy and yet women still feel its the smart thing to do, its their "right" to opt for the choice to dump their newborn in the bushes.

and all I'm saying is WTF??? WHY????

[Gentlemen Death]

I think if a woman wants to have an abortion, thats great. I know that I do not want a kid when I am working minimum wage and barely getting by. I will not bring MY child into a world where I cannot support it.

I also agree with White and Mck on these political calls. I think it is unfair calling Mcain's nomination of a female VP desperate; in fact it sounds like a really lame excuse because the dems probably wish they would have done it first.

Also....this thread is pretty fucking entertaining, keep it up peeps!

[TrixieB]

OK... I am militantly pro-choice. The "choice" in question is whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, generally, an unwanted one. In most cases, (the ones that I know about personally, anyway) the decision was made with the woman's partner and /or her parents. Of the women that I know who have been faced with this terrible decision, not one of them made it lightly.

In my opinion, there should be more education and available birth control so that abortions are extremely few and far between. However, birth control fails and not everyone has access to sex education that is really useful. So, should someone who does all the right things to protect themselves (the pill, the patch, condoms) but still gets pregnant be forced to become either a parent or a criminal? These are the choices that we are talking about.

[whitetemplar78]

So I love free choice, as long as us mean brutish men stay out of it I guess. Listen, I think a woman is free to do with her body as she will's, unless it affects other people...uhh like the father!!! My God, Ive sat through two Abortions, and both times I was sick to my stomach for days, I fought both tooth and nail, but because I was just the "guy" in the end it didn't matter one damn bit, so I feel a bit strong about this, and right now one of my best friends who just had a baby with a woman that now hates him, is getting RAPED over the coals by the fucked up system that shields the girl, and ass rapes the man, for one child, one, one that HE wanted and not her, he now pays $565 a month for, and he only gets her weekends, and oh when she feels like dropping her off, cause she needs to go get some. So yah by all means do what you will, but please remember the one fact of baby making....IT TAKES TWO!!, this system NEEDS to be fixed one where the father isn't nailed, because he dangles on the outside, instead of the the inside. One where I don't have to sit there at night hating the world, cause I have no legal way to stop the woman from killing OUR FUCKING CHILD, not her's alone.

And why do dems just love to jump all over someone cause they own a gun, or believe in gun rights???....my God, have you been to Alaska?? I have, i lived there for 4 years, and trust me YOU WANT A GUN, my god i Remember one night where I was woken up with a loud banging noise outside my barracks window, when I looked out there was a nice 13 foot Kodiak Grizzly bear trying to tip over the dumpster.....So yah, guess what you want to own a gun in Alaska, or you could end up a meal, or at the very least hurt very very badly, if they would have let me, I would have owned a tank to drive to work in.....Lordy those things where HUGE!

[Gentlemen Death]

I agree again, White. I also have lived in Alaska (Eielson AFB) and loved it. Also, my parents owned a gun and for good reason, the fucking MOOSE would walk through our neighborhoods where I, as a kid and others, would play. Moose and once I saw a Brown Bear, are always walking around in the fucking streets and on that little two way road they called the highway to fairbanks.

I can understand now wanting to own a gun when you live in a cute little neighborhood, but when you are living out in the middle of nowhere, where ANYTHING can happen, I would rather have a loaded gun in my house then a dull kitchen knife....nooge!:D

[mckracken]

OK... I am militantly pro-choice. The "choice" in question is whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, generally, an unwanted one.

In my opinion, there should be more education and available birth control so that abortions are extremely few and far between. However, birth control fails and not everyone has access to sex education that is really useful. So, should someone who does all the right things to protect themselves (the pill, the patch, condoms) but still gets pregnant be forced to become either a parent or a criminal? These are the choices that we are talking about.

to become either a parent or a criminal.. or perhaps you/they/she might consider adoption as a third option? yes?

Yes I know its a difficult decision, never an easy one. Thankfully, I have never been asked to make that decision or asked for my opinion.

One thing that wasnt mentioned in WhiteTemplar's post that dealt with the feeings of the father being dismissed by the courts over the feelings of the mother because she's pregnant (it takes TWO doesnt it?)

Who will stand up and fight for the child's rights? And dont tell me the child doesnt have any rights, that the mother can do as she pleases with her body. Sorry ladies, What about the body of the child who cannot speak for itself?

just out of curiosity, Trixie, why wasnt adoption considered in your cases? (or was it?)

I'm not angry at anyone, I'm not going to get upset at anybody because they say they have a right to choose, I'm just saying be smart about it and consider all your options and I would hope that if you do choose to abort, you have exhausted alll other options and tried all other ideas and looked at all the different possibilties because abortion should rarely EVER actually be an option, I'm talking in the 1% to 5% range, if that.

I'm so sick of hearing these news stories of seven year old kids finding babies in bushes or dumpsters it makes me sick to my stomach.

[whitetemplar78]

hahah....omg GD, was reading your post nodding my head, thinking of all the crazy animals I saw up there, and then that nooge at the end made me spray my drink everywhere.....hahahha man, good times, so you were in the Chair Force ehh?....I was stationed at the big Coast Guard base on Kodiak, now those where some bears!!! and yah, I agree the Moose are crazy!!! Had one in the middle of the road one day eating some grass without a care in the world, wouldn't move a inch, no matter how much I wailed on the horn.....and I was not getting out of the car to argue with a 1500lb moose
Mckraken I agree with your thoughts on paying for abortions, I firmly believe that the federal government should stay out of this, and gay marriage, its none of their bussiness

[mckracken]

well Gay Marriage, ok as a Christian I'm told to be opposed to the gay lifestyle but not the person and would never stand in the way of another human being fighting for their equal rights. It simply isnt my fight. I already have the right to marry so why should I fight to stop others from having those very same rights?

I somtimes wonder why the christian church fights so hard to prevent gay marriage, like they have a vested stake in the outcome or something?

The church's main goal is bringing people in to the faith, not creating a roadblock in preventing certain individuals from having rights.

I'm for equal rights for ALL... not equal rights exclusively for Christians.

[Gentlemen Death]

For me, I feel I was lucky because my parents did not raise me with a religion in mind, they wanted me to figure it out on my own, let the decision be mine and not forced upon.

Now though, my wife was raised catholic, does not follow it so much now but when we have a kid she wants he/she baptised catholic...THAT I have a problem with...Not sure how to approach the situation when it comes but I am sure we *cough* (SHE) will come to an agreement.:D

As for politic benefits, I do not think religion should be an issue as long as you are not pressing it upon the american people. Believe what you want but do not shout it in my face and tell me I am going to hell because I am agnostic!

Oh and Mckracken....I farted....

[NotAFan]

Someon should retitle this thread "Political ROundtable" or something! Abortion, Now gay marriage. OK I'll play along I'm against the death penalty!....This should be interesting. :popcorn:

[mckracken]

ah notafan, I had an interesting idea, instead of the Death Penalty, make the inmates use their prison job allowance to pay a CELL RENT while they are incarcerated!

we're already putting our criminals to good use fixing the freeways...at least the ones in minimum security, but why not impose a cell rent fee or cell tax and make them pay rent on that cell they are being held in, make them pay for their meals, that way all their allowance would go toward back into the prison and not to their bank accounts.

[Gentlemen Death]

Someon should retitle this thread "Political ROundtable" or something! Abortion, Now gay marriage. OK I'll play along I'm against the death penalty!....This should be interesting. :popcorn:

I still think we should put them on a island (Escape from N.Y. / No Escape) and let them kill eachother for our entertainment(The Condemned, Death Race).....No, I'm serious!! :lol: :popcorn:

[NotAFan]

But Mckracken how will they buy their B*tches and toilet wine?

"I still think we should put them on a island (Escape from N.Y. / No Escape) and let them kill eachother for our entertainment (The Condemned).....No, I'm serious!!"----Isn't that the plot to "Lost"!

[Gentlemen Death]

But Mckracken how will they buy their B*tches and toilet wine?

"I still think we should put them on a island (Escape from N.Y. / No Escape) and let them kill eachother for our entertainment (The Condemned).....No, I'm serious!!"----Isn't that the plot to "Lost"!

LOL....Yea, I do not want to get started on Lost....:lol:

[mckracken]

I still think we should put them on a island (Escape from N.Y. / No Escape) and let them kill eachother for our entertainment(The Condemned, Death Race).....No, I'm serious!! :lol: :popcorn:

the problem is that they'd probably be resourceful enough to work together and actually get OFF the island and back to the mainland...they are criminals after all :lol:

[Space Tycoon]

I'm with you McCracko... it's a child, not a choice.





.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh, and I wish more people were talking about the stuff I brought up, about geography and energy... just sayin'. :ohwell:





.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

I think you may be right there Spacey. It could be a very shrewd move on behalf of the administration should McCain win.

Is there any truth in the rumour that she is a creationist ?

[TrixieB]

The pro-choice issue is a very personal one with me. I don't really feel the need to debate it, but I will not support any candidate who is not pro-choice.


And yes, McKracken... ALL options were considered. In some cases, the pregnancy was terminated, in one there was an adoption involved and in others the child was kept.

[rappites]

McKracken:

On the issue of RAPING.

Your are raping a woman by forcing her to keep her unwanted child. YOU ARE FORCING HER!!! TO DO SOMETHING THAT SHE DOES NOT WANT TO DO!!!

RAPE IS FORCING A WOMAN TO DO SOMETHING SHE DOES NOT WANT TO DO.

Get it.

I have had several attempts of rape. Most of them when I was a teenager. One by an older man when I was watching his kids. Once by a boy who was four years older than me in the woods. And once by my boyfirend. I had the bruises and scars from the memories of them shoving their hands down my pants when I did not want them too.

So, if I had been raped and then became pregnant at 13 (which was the father of the kids that I babysitted) and then RAPED to keep the child. It would have been devasting to me.

This world is over populated now and if a woman decides to have an abortion. Than so be it.

If a woman decides to keep the baby and the man who fucked her got her pregnant and does not want anything to do with the baby and signs a paper releasing all rights of the child. Then the woman has no right to demand support. That was her choice to keep it.

[rappites]

By the way. I have never had an abortion. I have never had a mis carried a pregnancy.

If for some reason I should become pregnant again. I would not abort. I would have the baby. Just for the reason I said of the bond. I would feel guilty about aborting the baby.

But, that is for me and my own personal feelings.

Everything that I said above is for women all over the world.

I think government should stay out of it.

[Jakester]

RAPE IS FORCING A WOMAN TO DO SOMETHING SHE DOES NOT WANT TO DO.

Men can't be raped?
Is a woman raped by the government when she is forced to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle if she does not want to wear one?
I believe your definition is entirely too broad.

[Space Tycoon]

I think you may be right there Spacey. It could be a very shrewd move on behalf of the administration should McCain win.

Is there any truth in the rumour that she is a creationist ?

She apparently wants creation mythology (I refuse to call it science :smirk: ) taught alongside evolution in classes. So that could be interpreted as a sop to the creationists, but I don't know if she is a creationist who denies evolution per se.

My attitude towards that is, if it's a private religious school, that's one thing. I'm currently doing a contract at a private Islamic school, and religion is an integral part of their curriculum, as is math and science. (That reminds me, I should get back there...)

A secular public school science class should teach science, period. If you want a separate class presenting religious ideas, set up a creation curriculum there.





.

[Space Tycoon]

I believe your definition is entirely too broad.


No pun intended.






.

[rappites]

Men can't be raped?
Is a woman raped by the government when she is forced to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle if she does not want to wear one?
I believe your definition is entirely too broad.

But, we are not talking about men. We are talking about abortion only. NOTHING ELSE!!!

[rappites]

You only want to throw those things in there because....well you are who you are and you want to be an.....


Fill in the blank...

[Jakester]

Rapps, you brought up rape, and said that it means to "force a woman to do something she does not want to do." So, you equated making abortions illegal to rape. I submit that the two are not at all the same thing. Thus, I'm pointing out a fallacy in your argument.
Basically, I am pro-choice, but if you're going to argue...

[Kaeos]

Speaking of Reproductive issues.....

17 year old daughter of Sarah Palin is pregnant. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/palin.daughter/index.html)

"This message brought to you by conservative republicans, holding the line on abstinence education since 2000"

(jEES kAEOS bITTER mUCH?!?!)

I'm not judging the family here, the same thing can and does happen to people all over this country every day. but this underscores the point that McCain's side can and will say or do anything to score "political points"

If this had been Obama's daughter at age 17, There would have been a Conservative FIRE STORM over it. But because it's one of their own, then it's okay because they are a good family who makes the right choices. They are CELEBRATING this story as a way to underscore the pro-life message. And thats where I get angry. The deliberate politicizing of a young child for political gain.

Bristol Palin, the 17-year-old daughter of Sarah Palin, is pregnant and will keep the baby and marry the father, a senior aide to Sen. John McCain confirmed to CNN Tuesday.

Republican presidential candidate McCain was aware of Bristol Palin's pregnancy before he chose her mother for his running mate, the aide said.
"Senator McCain knew this and felt in no way did it disqualify her from being vice president," said the aide. "Families have difficulties sometimes, and lucky for her she has a supportive family."
The 17-year-old, a senior in high school, is about five months along, in her second trimester, according to the aide.
The aide said it was decided the campaign would reveal this information now because of rampant Internet rumors that Sarah Palin's 4-month-old baby, who has Down syndrome, was actually Bristol's.
"In the course of correcting that, we needed to get the truth out," said the McCain aide. iReport.com: Share your thoughts (http://www.ireport.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=68245)
Sarah and Todd Palin issued a statement saying they are "proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents."
"We have been blessed with five wonderful children who we love with all our heart and mean everything to us," the statement said. "Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned."
"Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family," the statement said.
The Palins also asked the media to respect their daughter's privacy.
The McCain aide insisted a key point to keep in mind is that Bristol decided to keep the baby, a decision "supported by her parents."

[Jakester]

Oh, of course the Repubs are spinning it, and, of course the Dems are jumping all over it. The reverse would be true if it was Obama's or Biden's kid. Both sides do it. And, as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with how any of them will run the country.

[Scotia]

McCain has gotta be feeling a little buyer's remorse.

[TrixieB]

Hmmm... Interesting. You know, Gov. Palin is a big proponent of abstinence only sex education. Wonder how well that worked out?

[NotAFan]

:lol: HAHAHA! This is the funniest $#!+ I've heard all day! Palin's daughter is a whore! HAHAHA! Plus there is NO way she wants to marry this guy! Palin has brought back the shotgun wedding, literally. Apparently she good at shooting more than just moose! HAHAHA! :lol: I guess McCain never heard of a background check! This is only the first day! Think of what they'll find out tomorrow!

[mckracken]

"Bristol is marrying the Father, a Senior Aide to McCain." This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

could that be one of the reasons McCain picked Palin as his VP?

[neglet]

You guys are overlooking the most important fact here: she named her daughter "Bristol"?!?!?!?!

I could never vote for someone who would be so cruel as to do that to their own child.

[TrixieB]

Not just this daughter!! The kid's names are Bristol, Track, Willow, Piper and Trig.

Apparently, there were rumors that the the 5th child was actually the daughter's and not the mom's.

[Space Tycoon]

Palin's daughter is a whore!

No, she's not. If she was a whore she would have aborted the fetus, had nothing to do with the father, and expected society to pity her for some reason.






.

[Intelligent_Design]

WOW!!!

As sick as it sounds I bet The Repubs are greatful for Gustav to knock this off the headlines. Now if Gustav can hang around for 9 or so months they should be in the clear.

[rappites]

Rapps, you brought up rape, and said that it means to "force a woman to do something she does not want to do." So, you equated making abortions illegal to rape. I submit that the two are not at all the same thing. Thus, I'm pointing out a fallacy in your argument.
Basically, I am pro-choice, but if you're going to argue...

Whatever....... you will never get it because you are man. You are a man right?

And what support you have for someone who is Pro-Choice. Instead of helping me make my point. You would rather make it more difficult.

:( :( :( :(

[Jakester]

Well, Rapps, if you're going to have a law, it needs to be, unless I'm mistaken, equal. My point is that your definition of rape is extremely broad. Carrying a child to term is not rape. Perhaps the conception was, but not aborting one is not, by definition, rape.


Oh...regarding Palin's kids' names -- what's wrong with Willow?
And yeah, I have plenty to say about the whole situation, but I think most of it's been said. Still, I don't think this has anything to do with Gov. Palin's viability as Veep. Naming a kid Track? Maybe. ;)

[Outsydr]

No, she's not. If she was a whore she would have aborted the fetus, had nothing to do with the father, and expected society to pity her for some reason.
.

Okay. I was going to keep out of this one, but THIS is was too much for me to bare. Sir, this statement was EXTREMELY offensive. The nerve you have to equate the difficult decision what anyone would make regarding something so serious... reduced to such a simple-minded, flippant little dismissal as to call someone a whore.

But then, I don't know why I'm surprised. I've read your musings for 4 years, Space. And if there's one thing that a man with YOUR taste in women knows, it's how to spot a prostitute.

[Gentlemen Death]

....AND it starts....:rolleyes:

[Al-Dog]

. . . Mania is back . . .

:popcorn:

[Outsydr]

....AND it starts....:rolleyes:

Oho. Well, I'm just getting started here. Don't think I didn't notice one of your little gems.

I can understand now wanting to own a gun when you live in a cute little neighborhood, but when you are living out in the middle of nowhere, where ANYTHING can happen, I would rather have a loaded gun in my house then a dull kitchen knife.

I make no secret of the fact that I don't like guns. But it strikes me as odd how easily we as a species turn to them when our ignorance of something causes us to fear it enough to want to destroy it. I don't suppose it ever occured to you that the reason why the moose might be tramping through your "middle of nowhere" is that the same area might also be the considered middle of SOMEWHERE--- for the moose! Maybe if humanity wasn't so damn hell bent on developing every scrap of land they see for new housing or another Home Depot, there would be more places for the moose to go!

But I suppose you're right. As the "good book" says, this whole ball is just a place for all of us humans to play. So go ahead. Shoot a moose. Maybe it'll help you capture that all-too-elusive grown man feeling you've been struggling to capture all these years.

[whitetemplar78]

Ok, Outsyder im taking in the fact that you have never lived in alaska in account before I reply but man, this is hard not to laugh long and hard on this one. Ok for one, there is so much room up there for the moose to roam, its not even funny. Two moose are veryyyyyy territorial, as in you get within a certain distance, they WILL attack...im sorry me and a 1500 lb moose going a mano a mano will have one outcome...him gaining my guts as his antlar rings. Now I love nature as much as the next man, but i'll be damned if im gonna let some nice large moose, or bear use me as a punching bag. So for the safety of my family, and myself I'll carry a damn RPG if i have to, and the hell with the whole "guns are bad crowd" guns shooting up schools are bad, guns shooting up large bear attempting to eat me as a tidbit are GOOD.

Space, to address your points about the Northwest passage deal. To be honest this scares me, I think this gives China a golden chance to gain a solid foothold on North America, and thats NOT good. Its my hope that Canada, and the US work together to devolpe this together, using Canadian and US resources, and companys to use this passage, and oil fields. To me this offers a chance to break the hold that OPEC holds over us, and gives us a chance and time to develop other sources of fuel and energy.

[NotAFan]

. . . Mania is back . . .

:popcorn:

Well, mostly just this thread it would seem! People love to spout off about politics! Of course no one ever wins but it's always fun to watch people fight, that's why boxing is so popular!

[Gentlemen Death]

Oho. Well, I'm just getting started here. Don't think I didn't notice one of your little gems.



I make no secret of the fact that I don't like guns. But it strikes me as odd how easily we as a species turn to them when our ignorance of something causes us to fear it enough to want to destroy it. I don't suppose it ever occured to you that the reason why the moose might be tramping through your "middle of nowhere" is that the same area might also be the considered middle of SOMEWHERE--- for the moose! Maybe if humanity wasn't so damn hell bent on developing every scrap of land they see for new housing or another Home Depot, there would be more places for the moose to go!

But I suppose you're right. As the "good book" says, this whole ball is just a place for all of us humans to play. So go ahead. Shoot a moose. Maybe it'll help you capture that all-too-elusive grown man feeling you've been struggling to capture all these years.

Like WT just said, when there is a 1500lb moose coming at you, would you rather have a gun to defend not only yourself but your family?...OR would you rather be sporting a spork?

I do not own a gun but I have no problem with people WHO LIVE IN ALASKA (like my previous post was suggesting) owning one. That was my point in the whole matter. Now, if you want to discuss gun issues with crazy people, talk to the ones in TX, I am sure they will welcome your conversation with a beer!:D

PLUS...why the insults buddy? I hope those are not directed towards me but to the owners of 80 different types of guns..?...

[Jakester]

I'm not a particular fan of owning guns, myself. I do enjoy shooting from time to time, but I don't go to ranges, and haven't shot a gun in 15-20 years. I don't particularly like the proliferation of guns amongst the criminals. I don't like that police have (legitimately) become so afraid of kids shooting them with real guns that they've killed kids who were brandishing cap guns.

That said, were I to live in a wilderness area (and even in Anchorage, moose and polar bears wander down into the streets), I'd want a large caliber gun to protect the family. Sure, it's better to live in harmony with nature, but not when nature wants to eat my kid's arm.

I also believe that the Second Amendment exists because the Founding Fathers were so very afraid of the government becoming too powerful, that the public at large should be armed well enough to overthrow it. At the current time, this is no longer practical -- we can't afford jets, tanks, or MiRVs as private individuals. Still, with passage of legislation like the Patriot Act and 3/4 of schoolkids thinking that the government should censor newspapers, we've got to protect our freedoms somehow (and I'll give you a clue -- it ain't by invading Iraq). An armed public is the last line of defense that this country's freedom has. It's also odd that the Republicans are the ones who are pro-gun, but in so many other respects are the ones who want to see American liberties taken away under the guise of "protecting freedom."

Do I like guns? Not at all. Do I think they are necessary? Sometimes.

[Space Tycoon]

The nerve you have to equate the difficult decision what anyone would make regarding something so serious... reduced to such a simple-minded, flippant little dismissal as to call someone a whore.

First of all, what's-his-name brought the whore into this, not me. I just got sloppy seconds.

Second of all, if you want to attack someone for making a flippant, simple-minded remark, why not start with some anonymous internet poster who refers to a 17 year-old girl he's never met as a "whore." That's extremely cheap and simpleminded, but doesn't seem to bother you at all, I can only imagine for partisan reasons.

But then, I don't know why I'm surprised. I've read your musings for 4 years, Space. And if there's one thing that a man with YOUR taste in women knows, it's how to spot a prostitute.

Ooh, that'll teach me. Sure, it's true from time to time I've been known to take the "any port in a storm" rule a tad literally. I'm a man, whaddaya want?

And what does that have to do with the subject at hand, except as a cheap personal shot?

Actually I have excellent taste in women Outsydr, which is part of the reason I am not married yet. But if/when I do, I will be lucky to end up with someone like Sarah Palin. Not saying I'd necessarily vote for her, just... sayin'.





.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

...OR would you rather be sporting a spork?...

I once killed a man with a spork. It made a terrible mess.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Oh, and if having unprotected sex at the age of 17 makes somebody a whore, then pass me the high heels and crack pipe coz I whored it up plenty !

[rappites]

Hey Spacey,,,are you saying that Outy has terrible taste in women because he is married. If so you are taking a shot at me.

Thanks a lot....you don't even know me.

[Space Tycoon]

I'm not saying anything of the kind. You know that. :rolleyes:

Jeez, you guys are acting all offended like a couple of Canadians. I thought you Americans had thicker skin than that...






.

[Jakester]

You did? Given all of the annoyingly inane lawsuits we've had in the last 10-20 years, what on earth could lead you to that conclusion?

[Kaeos]

First of all, what's-his-name brought the whore into this, not me. I just got sloppy seconds..

Thanks Space, that was me. Nice to see you too buddy. :lol:

[Jakester]

When did we start talking about whores? I'll rent one.

[neglet]

Can you feeeel, the love toniiiiight!

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Jakester, you couldn't afford me sweetie !!! :D

[rappites]

Pictures of Sarah Palins Daughter Bristol drinking (http://perezhilton.com/2008-09-02-what-did-her-mom-do-wrong#respond)


I am not saying that we all did not drink when we were teenagers. But, we are not trying to paint a picture of perfection either.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Again, drinking, seventeen..... guilty as charged ! Does this mean I am also qualified to be 2nd Daughter of the US ?

[rappites]

Are you pregnant too?

Then yes.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Hey, i may have a bit of a beer belly developing, but it ain't that bad ! You cheeky moo !! :D

[kah]

This is exactly why I am staying out of this thread.

Personally, I don't need anyone's validation to make me sure of my values and convictions, so discussing them wouldn't serve any purpose.

The point of a political discussion should be to discuss politics, not to throw mud or take personal offense to comments that weren't intended as insults.

Oh, and drinking and sleeping around at 17? Guilty as charged. Does that mean my mom wasn't doing the best she could at the time? You bet your ass she did, but sometimes it just wasn't enough.

The wedding part of it is the only thing that really bothers me. I don't think children should get married.

Oh, and I'm not taking the bait and jumping into the pro-life/pro-choice bitchfest that's been going on here. I'll leave that to the rest of you.

[fastcar]

I think you're all crazy. This will be the funniest goddamn election in years. I can't wait for the Maury/Springer style debates. I think McCain's campaign theme should be "Out of Touch" by Hall and Oates. Granted, I am a registered Democrat and usually pick the lesser of two evils. However, I cannot afford to live through four more years of idiocy. That being said, I ain't touching half of these topics with a moose dick.

[Jakester]

Personally, I don't need anyone's validation to make me sure of my values and convictions, so discussing them wouldn't serve any purpose.
You have values and convictions? :Mwahaha:

[omicron]

You have values and convictions? :Mwahaha:

obviously, since she hasn't given in to you. :lol:

[rappites]

Yeah your right Kah. I should keep my opinions of political subjects to myself.

I have suppresed my opinion for years. Mainly because I did not give a shit. Politicians will do what they want. They rest of us just go about living our boring little lives.

So, I just feel very strongly regarding a womans right to choose and felt I needed to speak up has a woman, a mother of three and someone who has had attempted rapes on her.

I will be quite from here on out.

I am sure that will upset most of you here. ~sarcasam - can you feel it~

[kah]

I said no such thing about you keeping your mouth shut. I said you all should be arguing about the politics and not making personal attacks on each other here, nor taking comments made about the politicians personally.

You just did exactly that. I'm done with this thread.

[KingVoyeur]

Do I need to throw a toy mouse in here to distract you guys?

I don't think I've ever seen Kah and Raps throw down before. Don't stop now!!!

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[rappites]

^^LMAO!!!

Yeah, well, it can happen.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh, and if having unprotected sex at the age of 17 makes somebody a whore, then pass me the high heels and crack pipe coz I whored it up plenty !

Well then you can forget about running for higher office, Dalton. Unless you were Sir Galahad The Pure your entire life, it ain't gonna happen. :ohwell:







.

[Al-Dog]

Meow!
http://www.liverpool.com/assets/_files/images/jun_07/lb_liv__1182513903_catfight_new_large.jpg

[Space Tycoon]

You did? Given all of the annoyingly inane lawsuits we've had in the last 10-20 years, what on earth could lead you to that conclusion?

What was I thinking...

[Space Tycoon]

Thanks Space, that was me. Nice to see you too buddy. :lol:

No, I meant the one who called Palin's daughter a whore.... :headscratch:


Ahw, what the hell, we got whores, let's just enjoy them.


.

[whitetemplar78]

OMG, I love this lady, and her famiy, this is the first polictical family ive seen in years that comes off like a normal screwed up American family...hahahhaha I mean she isn't even trying to hide it, which is nice, Palin is all..."yah, she's knocked up, and the boy toy is gonna hitch up to this buggy or else"....well not in so many words, but all parents here can read between those lines...lol, listen to me, this is refreshing, Im so tired of these so called "perfect" familys that we watch everyday, till something finally leaks out, and BAM slam fest glaore on that, its nice to just have it out in the open. I mean I can look at this woman, and see her family, and mine just sitting out back having a cookout and drinking some beers as we bitch about the kids, and talking about the next PTA meeting.....:D

[Al-Dog]

What I think is more intriguing than the 17 year old being pregnant is, what the hell was McCain thinking about? I know teenage pregnancies are a fact of life and in an ideal world it shouldn’t have anything to do with the qualifications of the mother being the vice president. But we don’t live in an ideal world.

McCain’s camp says that they knew that the girl was pregnant before they offered Palin the VP position, and they still offered it to her. Why? Did think it would not be an issue to the fundamentalist whom (I’m assuming) they were trying to attract with the Palin nomination? Or did McCain think that Palin is such a perfect choose that they couldn’t possible do better? What I think happened was that Palin was an impulsive chose by McCain and he was hoping that the pregnancy would not be discovered until after the election or at least until after the republican convention.

[Space Tycoon]

Im so tired of these so called "perfect" familys that we watch everyday, till something finally leaks out, and BAM slam fest glaore on that, its nice to just have it out in the open.


Amen to that.






.

[rappites]

The only thing that I see as a problem is that...these people are suppose to be "role models".

So, for a Vice President to have a daughter that is 17 y.o. old..drinking..having sex...becoming preganant (I was doing all of this except becoming pregnant. My boyfriend knew when to pull out)

These are people that will be representing us to the world. The last thing I want a president of another country doing is asking our Vice President. "So, when is your teenage daughter due...are you looking forward to becoming a grandma?"

Otherwise, I could care less. I knew of a girl who became pregnant at 16 and she is a grandma at 37. Same age as I am.

How old was Sarah when she had her first child?

[Graymatter]

I really want to say "18," even though it's the wrong answer...

NB. This is the same methodology Magoo used to elect his VP!

[NotAFan]

The only thing that I see as a problem is that...these people are suppose to be "role models".

So, for a Vice President to have a daughter that is 17 y.o. old..drinking..having sex...becoming preganant (I was doing all of this except becoming pregnant. My boyfriend knew when to pull out)




From "rappites" profile:

Age: 37 Light Years

Gender: Male
Profile Viewed: 160 Times



OF course you didn't get pregnant you're a dude! If you was a chick you'd know that pulling out doesn't keep you from getting pregnant, it only reduces your odds.

[Bill_the_Pony]

:rolleyes:

[Kaeos]

The only thing that I see as a problem is that...these people are suppose to be "role models".

So, for a Vice President to have a daughter that is 17 y.o. old..drinking..having sex...becoming preganant (I was doing all of this except becoming pregnant. My boyfriend knew when to pull out)

These are people that will be representing us to the world. The last thing I want a president of another country doing is asking our Vice President. "So, when is your teenage daughter due...are you looking forward to becoming a grandma?"

Otherwise, I could care less. I knew of a girl who became pregnant at 16 and she is a grandma at 37. Same age as I am.

How old was Sarah when she had her first child?

Exactly my questions Rapps. (great minds thinking alike and all that :D)

So lets skip the whole pregnancy thing. Point made. The Republican "Family Values" party is full of crap. There are pictures of this girl drinking beer, there is a whole litany of events that point to the youngest child belonging to Bristol, I won't bother going into it.

In the end, none of it matters with the exception of demonstrating that this person is NOT the person they should have chosen if they want to continue to claim higher moral ground than the rest of us and put up McCain's best Successor.

So lets get to the real issues that Sarah Palin brings to the table. She is STILL under an ethics investigation in Alaska, but we should probably ignore that too because every politician might as well be under ethics investigations.

The point of the conversation is figuring out if this person is REALLY who we want in the position of being one step from the Presidency. And the fact for me is that the supporters of this person have been screaming the words "MUSLIM!!!" and "SOCIALIST!!" as if Obama is an anti-christ about to rain hell upon us. He went to a "MADRASA!!!" He was associated with the Weather Underground...."HE SUPPORTS TERROR!!" and now they CLING to her as the greatest thing to happen to McCain's campaign.

Okay there's all of Hannity and Limbaugh's talking points this year. So now to Mrs. Palin. All that B.S. above and yet today we find out that Mrs. Palin and her husband were long time members of the Alaskan Independence Party - who have been pushing for secession from America since the 70's (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html)

So does that make her a traitor? Kinds seems logical to me, and it must be making them nervous since McCain's camp is trying to deny, even when the leader of that party confirms it.

Lets see if Faux News is able to spin this one as "more left wing propganda"

[omicron]

bah, like I am worried by what the world thinks of us sexually.
Hell, don't alot of the foreign leaders have mistresses? I think most of the world looks at the US as a bunch of prudes.

[NotAFan]

I say think of it this way. Worst case senario McCain wins, keels over and dies and Col. Jessep finally gets the thing he's been wishing for his whole military career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrPxkAF325g

[KingVoyeur]

I think we need a sound effects feature on here. I feel like this thread needs a "Wah wah wah waaaaaaah" sound right now.

[rappites]

Yes we are prudes. People in other countries are more at ease about their bodies and sexuality than we are.

But, that still does not dismiss the fact that she is a republican and that republicans are known for being prudes. Are knows for being radical and christian. So, this must be a blow to their so called image to have a Vice Presidential nominee with all of this "hush hush" stuff being brought out about the nominee.

I can see the old lady tea partys in the south, drinking, smoking and exhasperated by the fact that John McCain has picked a running mate without really knowing his running mate. He picked her to get the Hilary votes.

[Al-Dog]

Yes we are prudes. People in other countries are more at ease about their bodies and sexuality than we are.

Prudishness is a relative concept. We might be considered prudish in comparison to some (Brazil, South American, parts of Europe) but compared people in the Middle East or parts of Asia, we’re just one big orgy.

I can see the old lady tea partys in the south, drinking, smoking and exhasperated by the fact that John McCain has picked a running mate without really knowing his running mate. He picked her to get the Hilary votes.

That’s my biggest concern.

I find it amazing how little thought he put into his selection. Especially considering how, with his age and health issues, there is a good chance that (if he wins) she will be our next president.

[rappites]

Donate $12 and get a Obama T-Shirt. (https://political.moveon.org/obamatshirts/index.html?enc_min=UmFuZG9tSVZAjY8OgadUg+axbqLF3a+ htMZmJ77Hugg=-agLtdoweCfd1OBb3eQ/Tcw)

[NotAFan]

Donate $12 and get a Obama T-Shirt. (https://political.moveon.org/obamatshirts/index.html?enc_min=UmFuZG9tSVZAjY8OgadUg+axbqLF3a+ htMZmJ77Hugg=-agLtdoweCfd1OBb3eQ/Tcw)

For $2.00 I will write "SUCKS" on any Obama or McCain T-shirt!

[Bill_the_Pony]

No, you keep your two bucks, thank you. :smirk:

[NotAFan]

No, you keep your two bucks, thank you. :smirk:

You got it Mr. Thepony! Well anyway Mr. Thepony, it seems you misunderstood what I was saying, Mr. Thepony. You see Mr. Thepony I was actually saying that They would pay me $2.00. DO you see now Mr. Thepony? But Mr. Thepony, I could see how you get confused, Mr. Thepony. BTW Mr. Thepony, that's a strange name you have there. Don't tell me it's greek isn't it!

[Intelligent_Design]

I know the rest of the World is laughing at us now. The only way to repair this, is to launch bombs....Let the world know we still meen biznass!!!

[whitetemplar78]

lol, omg people, who cares.... case in point
JFK, one the biggest manwhores out there, and he was mixed up with the mob!!! and...and...here it comes...HE WAS THOUGHT OF AS ONE OF THE GREATEST PRESIDENTS EVER!!
then there is good ole Billy boy Clinton, the Dems goldenboy....yahhhh lets think of this womenizing man hooker, oh wait for it, wait for it....HE WAS A CRIMINAL THAT NEVER GOT CAUGHT!!!
and this is the great part guys....THEY WERE BOTH FUCKING PRESIDENTS, NOT THE VP'S!!!!
So oh god please, give me someone who's worse crime is having a normal, horny teenage daughter!!!

[Intelligent_Design]

lol, omg people, who cares.... case in point
JFK, one the biggest manwhores out there, and he was mixed up with the mob!!! and...and...here it comes...HE WAS THOUGHT OF AS ONE OF THE GREATEST PRESIDENTS EVER!!
then there is good ole Billy boy Clinton, the Dems goldenboy....yahhhh lets think of this womenizing man hooker, oh wait for it, wait for it....HE WAS A CRIMINAL THAT NEVER GOT CAUGHT!!!
and this is the great part guys....THEY WERE BOTH WERE FUCKING PRESIDENTS, NOT THE VP'S!!!!
So oh god please, give me someone who's worse crime is having a normal, horny teenage daughter!!!

Huh? 17 year old preggers is normal? What country are you from? Nambia?

[JarrodSarafin]

I think the whole problem, ID (welcome back by the way) is that it's now come down to bashing the children again.

The Clintons asked the media to stay out of their daughter's life. The Bushes asked the media to stay out of their daughters' lives. Now, the same is happening for this new group of contenders. Bash the 17 daughter and use the daughter as a reason to why the parent is unworthy for office.

The 17 year old isn't running for office after all.

As Kah or someone mentions above, go after the politicians and your difference in politics...Not their children.

[Intelligent_Design]

I think the whole problem, ID (welcome back by the way) is that it's now come down to bashing the children again.

The Clintons asked the media to stay out of their daughter's life. The Bushes asked the media to stay out of their daughters' lives. Now, the same is happening for this new group of contenders. Bash the 17 daughter and use the daughter as a reason to why the parent is unworthy for office.

The 17 year old isn't running for office after all.

As Kah or someone mentions above, go after the politicians and your difference in politics...Not their children.

If you are 17 and with child you should be bashed as well as the parents.IMO The fact that people are saying this isn't a problem makes me fear for this country. As far as Palin's politics are concerned She loves Guns, I love Guns so I don't have much of a problem there.That could change before the election though.

[JarrodSarafin]

Don't really agree with you on that, ID. Teenagers make these kind of mistakes often. My own mother got pregnant with my older sister when she just turned 18. In fact, a lot of the baby boomer generation got pregnant before hitting 20. Of course, those were different times...

But these things happen.

That's my opinion though. You're welcome to have yours. :D

[Intelligent_Design]

Don't really agree with you on that, ID. Teenagers make these kind of mistakes often. My own mother got pregnant with my older sister when she just turned 18. In fact, a lot of the baby boomer generation got pregnant before hitting 20. Of course, those were different times...

But these things happen.

That's my opinion though. You're welcome to have yours. :D

Unless I've been out of the loop Teenagers Don't make the mistake of getting pregnant often. And furthermore that still doesn't diminish the point that its a big deal. Just ask Palin. :)

[NotAFan]

I think the whole problem, ID (welcome back by the way) is that it's now come down to bashing the children again.

The Clintons asked the media to stay out of their daughter's life. The Bushes asked the media to stay out of their daughters' lives. Now, the same is happening for this new group of contenders. Bash the 17 daughter and use the daughter as a reason to why the parent is unworthy for office.

The 17 year old isn't running for office after all.

As Kah or someone mentions above, go after the politicians and your difference in politics...Not their children.

It's funny how people say that now, but it didn't seem to stop people from going after Cheney's daughter when they found out she was gay. They made a big deal about how his daughter was gay but Cheney didn't support Gay marriage, and they said stuff like "How could she support her father?'. I don't see how this would be any different. The lady is pushing this hardline conservative thing and her daughter is pregnant at seventeen and is probably being forced to marry the guy. All I'm asking for is some consistency, for F*** sake!

[whitetemplar78]

who cares?....really isn't this a race for the President?.... How in anyway, does the Teenage daughter of the VP pick affect how John McCain would be as President?...isn't policy ideas, and views more important?...isn't his record as a Senator, and his own life more important?
To me, how they'll handle Putin is more important. To me how they handle OPEC ass raping us is more important. To me how they handle China is more important. To me how they handle Iran is more important. To me how they fix this country PERIOD is more important. Our fatal flaw in this country is we take important things, and forget them, and focus on the drama things, the "fun" things, the Soap Oprea of everyday life is more important to us, then the fate of this country as a whole.
Im sorry ID but yes, teenage pregancy is more common then you think, there are hundreds of studies, staticis support this fact, if anything the Palin familys issues, and problems are just a reflection of a common problem that faces ALOT of american familys today. To me, sitting here and trying to make this issue into a HORRIBLE thing is ironic, seeing that there have been several Presidents!! that have been outright guilty of criminal acts, but were never called out over those facts.

[Intelligent_Design]

[/COLOR]

It's funny how people say that now, but it didn't seem to stop people from going after Cheney's daughter when they found out she was gay. They made a big deal about how his daughter was gay but Cheney didn't support Gay marriage, and they said stuff like "How could she support her father?'. I don't see how this would be any different. The lady is pushing this hardline conservative thing and her daughter is pregnant at seventeen and is probably being forced to marry the guy. All I'm asking for is some consistency, for F*** sake!


This isn't the same situation. Palin's child made a choice to get pregnant at 17 contrary to her upbringing. If you say that Cheney's daughter Chose to be Gay I'm gonna hide in the freezer cause it may get hot in here. :lol:

[Intelligent_Design]

who cares?....really isn't this a race for the President?.... How in anyway, does the Teenage daughter of the VP pick affect how John McCain would be as President?...isn't policy ideas, and views more important?...isn't his record as a Senator, and his own life more important? Good point. John McCain choice of Palin should be viewed as reckless because there where better qualified VP canidates out there. The fact he went this route doesn't give me hope for dealing with Putin or Iran in anything less than a reckless fashion also.


Im sorry ID but yes, teenage pregancy is more common then you think, there are hundreds of studies, staticis support this fact, That may be true. Does that make it less of a problem?

if anything the Palin familys issues, and problems are just a reflection of a common problem that faces ALOT of american familys today.
I don't think ALOT of families deal with the everyday problems of a pregnant 17 year old and running for the position of the second most powerful person on the planet.:)


To me, sitting here and trying to make this issue into a HORRIBLE thing is ironic, seeing that there have been several Presidents!! that have been outright guilty of criminal acts, but were never called out over those facts.
You called them out a couple of post back? And are still calling them out. You have done your part !!!:lol: GD is also calling these immoral Dem. bastards out.

[Jakester]

Why are we not talking about my penis?

[Gentlemen Death]

lol, omg people, who cares.... case in point
JFK, one the biggest manwhores out there, and he was mixed up with the mob!!! and...and...here it comes...HE WAS THOUGHT OF AS ONE OF THE GREATEST PRESIDENTS EVER!!
then there is good ole Billy boy Clinton, the Dems goldenboy....yahhhh lets think of this womenizing man hooker, oh wait for it, wait for it....HE WAS A CRIMINAL THAT NEVER GOT CAUGHT!!!
and this is the great part guys....THEY WERE BOTH FUCKING PRESIDENTS, NOT THE VP'S!!!!
So oh god please, give me someone who's worse crime is having a normal, horny teenage daughter!!!

I was just about to bring up this exact point as well, WT, thank you. It is so easy to point fingers but when it comes down to it, Dems are just as bad as Rep. And guess what, we are people, humans, we make mistakes.

I can understand not wanting a president to represent the wrong thing.....Well for the Dems you have a current Pres. and for the Rep. you had a cheating Pres. who like to stick cigars up women's holes!...Just remember, it goes both ways!

Which brings up this...If this girl would have had a abortion, a lot of people would be calling her a murderer. She decides to have this kid at 17 and she is called a whore....Very weird perspective some of you have. What I am saying is that she will not win either way, the fact that her mother is a Rep., wh o is running with Mcain does her in right away!

[Intelligent_Design]

Which brings up this...If this girl would have had a abortion, a lot of people would be calling her a murderer. She decides to have this kid at 17 and she is called a whore....Very weird perspective some of you have. What I am saying is that she will not win either way, the fact that her mother is a Rep., wh o is running with Mcain does her in right away!

Why should I feel bad for this girl? She made her bed. I wish her the worst in life.....Maybe she should learn personal responsiblity. I also hope that Palin puts her outta the house and on the streets so she could learn the ramafications of her poor choices......That would be the conservative
thing to do right? I mean last I checked they were kinda big on "personal responsiblity". I mean if that goes out the window then they might as well become DEM-LITE.

[mckracken]

i'm not critisizing Bristol's getting pregnant, I am however raising an eyebrow to Palin's stance on being AGAINST teaching sex education in school, teaching abstinance in its place since obviously its worked SO WELL for her own family...harr harr harr...

perhaps if Bristol had been taught a little sex ed, she wouldnt be 5 months pregnant now?

[Gentlemen Death]

Why should I feel bad for this girl? She made her bed. I wish her the worst in life.....Maybe she should learn personal responsiblity. I also hope that Palin puts her outta the house and on the streets so she could learn the ramafications of her poor choices......That would be the conservative
thing to do right? I mean last I checked they were kinda big on "personal responsiblity". I mean if that goes out the window then they might as well become DEM-LITE.

I never said anything about having YOU feel bad for her but the point was is that shes screwed either way.

Also, I agree! Throw all those underage girls on the streets with their kids! Great idea, man! That way they can become prostitutes and end up selling their kids for crack! Great, man! You should become president!

[whitetemplar78]

Also, I agree! Throw all those underage girls on the streets with their kids! Great idea, man! That way they can become prostitutes and end up selling their kids for crack! Great, man! You should become president!

NO, NO NO, she needs to get on welfare, get some more kids, get money for them, so we can support her, and then nail the fathers for child support also!...come on its the american dream!

[whitetemplar78]

Why are we not talking about my penis?


I agree, see this brings up my other point, why isn't Jakester's penis running for President?...I mean he'd be good at national defence, gotta protect the home grown tang, he'd help the econmy make hookin legal, and tax it, damn imagine the tax wind fall for that! He'd help the enviroment, he'd make cars illegal, and make all women run topless to where they have to go, and make men stay home and watch football. Hellooooo clean air!....my God America what are we thinking, we have missed the true savior of our country its been in Jakesters tighty whiteys this whole time!!!

PENIS FOR 2012!!!!

[Intelligent_Design]

I never said anything about having YOU feel bad for her but the point was is that shes screwed either way.
Well, most kids that get pregnant are screwed.

Also, I agree! Throw all those underage girls on the streets with their kids! Great idea, man! That way they can become prostitutes and end up selling their kids for crack! Are you saying we should legalize prostitution and Crack because its unfair to all of the unwed teenage mothers put out on the street?:)



Great, man! You should become president!

That Idea has been tossed out there.

[Kaeos]

Okay attempt #2 to re-direct back to Palin herself then. Since it seems we are agreed Rumor or Scout or whatever the hell her name is should not be part of the conversation and now we're just trying to score points against each other and bashing opinions with sarcasm.

So again I ask. If Obama can be painted as a Muslim and painted as a Terrorism Supporter, shouldn't Palin be labeled appropriately as a Traitor for being a long standing member of the Alaskan Independence Party? - who have been pushing for secession from America since the 70's (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html)

[TrixieB]

My dad, who was a life long Republican until 2004, has always said that if anything, the GOP knows how to win elections. This nomination is a Hail Mary, in my opinion, to do just that. However, if the last four years have shown us anything, they may know how to win, but they certainly don't know how to govern.

[whitetemplar78]

So again I ask. If Obama can be painted as a Muslim and painted as a Terrorism Supporter, shouldn't Palin be labeled appropriately as a Traitor for being a long standing member of the Alaskan Independence Party? - who have been pushing for secession from America since the 70's (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html)

No, you wouldn't be out of line for that, but on one side, you have a strong anti american theme, and on the other you have a very pro alaskan theme....why do I say that?...cause living up there the people that are party to that, do it not because they hate america, but because they love Alaska, and believe that it would be better on its own. While members of the various groups that Obama's been tied to do what they do, cause they hate America. Now do I think that Obama still goes for that bs.....uhh no, do I think Palin now goes for it?...uhh no, both are just smear attempts by both sides of the media.

So let me ask you this Kaeos, isn't Obama's COMPLETE late of experiance just as important?.... He feel into his senate seat cause his popular rival fell into a sex scandal, he's only been a Senator for 4 years, and he's spent a chunk of that running for President, he has sat on no commities, and hasn't been apart of any MAJOR bill's. Now alot bring up Palin's lack of experiance also, butttt she's not running for the number 1 spot, he is. Butttt she has a couple of years running a state, has done some good things. Stopping the bridge to nowhere, going after corruption...and so on. And she's going for the VP slot , not the main one....aren't these concerns valid too?

[rappites]

Why are we not talking about my penis?

That is a void subject.

[Kaeos]

Thank you Templar. I put your comments in bold only because this is a long post and I want to make sure it's all discernible.

While members of the various groups that Obama's been tied to do what they do, cause they hate America.

I disagree with you on this one point here - What these nutjobs in the Weathermen did was back in the 60's and 70's. The don't exist anymore. History records that they did not blow up the statue and the empty police station for hate of America, but as what they apparently thought what they thought was justified retaliation for atrocities committed in our society and by those in charge at the time. Granted it was a stupid way to make a point. I just think it's an important distinction that those on the Right often leave out to make blanket statement about what they deem to be "America haters" everywhere they look.

So let me ask you this Kaeos, isn't Obama's COMPLETE late of experiance just as important?.... He feel into his senate seat cause his popular rival fell into a sex scandal

MANY others have won...or stolen elections on worse things than that.

he's only been a Senator for 4 years, and he's spent a chunk of that running for President

As opposed to McCain who's been....in the halls of Congress every day for the last 18 months....fixing the crap that the Bush Administration and the former spend happy Republican Congress.....of which McCain was a member....

he has sat on no commities, and hasn't been apart of any MAJOR bill's.

Fact check time brother man. Barack Obama sits on the following committees:

Member, Senate Committee on Foreign Relations
Chairman, Subcommittee on European Affairs
Member, Subcommittee on African Affairs
Member, Subcommittee on East Asian and Pacific Affairs
Member, Subcommittee on International Development and Foreign Assistance, Economic Affairs and International Environmental Protection
Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
Member, Subcommittee on Children and Families
Member, Subcommittee on Employment and Workplace Safety
Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Member, Subcommittee on Ad Hoc Subcommittee on State, Local, and Private Sector Preparedness and Integration
Member, Subcommittee on Investigations
Member, Subcommittee on Federal Financial Management, Government Information, Federal Services, and International Security
Member, Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs

And has either sponsored or co-sponsored the following legislation and bt the way this is ONLY 2007 and 2008. You're telling me THIS is a lack of experience? Or is it just easier to swallow the sound bytes and repeat them?

Passed Senate
Jun 26, 2007
S.Con.Res. 25: A concurrent resolution condemning the recent violent actions of the Government of Zimbabwe against peaceful opposition party activists and members of civil society.
Passed Senate
Jun 24, 2008
S.Res. 600: A resolution commemorating the 44th anniversary of the deaths of civil rights workers Andrew Goodman, James Chaney, and Michael Schwerner in Philadelphia, Mississippi, while working in the name of American democracy to register voters and secure civil rights during the summer of 1964, which has become known as "Freedom Summer".
Passed Senate
Jul 13, 2007
S.Res. 268: A resolution designating July 12, 2007, as "National Summer Learning Day".
Passed Senate
Mar 28, 2007
S.Res. 133: A resolution celebrating the life of Bishop Gilbert Earl Patterson.
Scheduled for Debate
Apr 24, 2008
S. 2433: Global Poverty Act of 2007
Scheduled for Debate
Oct 4, 2007
S. 453: Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2007
Introduced
Jul 29, 2008
S. 3358: Improving Food-borne Illness Surveillance and Response Act of 2008
Introduced
Jun 17, 2008
S. 3142: Preventing Stillbirth and SUID Act of 2008
Introduced
Jun 3, 2008
S. 3077: Strengthening Transparency and Accountability in Federal Spending Act of 2008
Introduced
May 21, 2008
S. 3047: Enhancing Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics Education Act of 2008
Introduced
Dec 19, 2007
S. 2519: Contracting and Tax Accountability Act of 2007
Introduced
Dec 6, 2007
S. 2428: National STEM Scholarship Database Act
Introduced
Nov 16, 2007
S. 2392: National STEM Scholarship Database Act
Introduced
Nov 13, 2007
S. 2347: Prevention Through Affordable Access Act
Introduced
Nov 8, 2007
S. 2330: Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act
Introduced
Oct 24, 2007
S. 2227: Success in the Middle Act of 2007
Introduced
Oct 24, 2007
S. 2224: Nuclear Release Notice Act of 2007
Introduced
Oct 18, 2007
S. 2202: Renewable Fuel Standard Extension Act of 2007
Introduced
Oct 4, 2007
S. 2147: Security Contractor Accountability Act of 2007
Introduced
Oct 3, 2007
S. 2132: A bill to prohibit the introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of children's products that contain lead, and for other purposes.
Introduced
Sep 27, 2007
S. 2111: Positive Behavior for Effective Schools Act
Introduced
Sep 18, 2007
S. 2066: Back to School: Improving Standards for Nutrition and Physical Education in Schools Act of 2007
Introduced
Sep 12, 2007
S. 2044: Independent Contractor Proper Classification Act of 2007
Introduced
Sep 6, 2007
S. 2030: A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require reporting relating to bundled contributions made by persons other than registered lobbyists.
Introduced
Aug 3, 2007
S. 1989: Pigford Claims Remedy Act of 2007
Introduced
Aug 2, 2007
S. 1977: Nuclear Weapons Threat Reduction Act of 2007
Introduced
Jul 26, 2007
S. 1885: Military Family Job Protection Act
Introduced
Jul 25, 2007
S. 1873: Improving Emergency Medical Care and Response Act of 2007
Introduced
Jul 19, 2007
S. 1824: Hospital Quality Report Card Act of 2007
Introduced
Jul 19, 2007
S. 1818: Missing Mercury in Manufacturing Monitoring and Mitigation Act
Introduced
Jul 19, 2007
S. 1817: A bill to ensure proper administration of the discharge of members of the Armed Forces for personality disorder, and for other purposes.
Introduced
Jul 18, 2007
S. 1811: Lead Poisoning Reduction Act of 2007
Introduced
Jul 16, 2007
S. 1790: Communities of Color Teen Pregnancy Prevention Act of 2007
Introduced
Jun 27, 2007
S. 1713: A bill to provide for the issuance of a commemorative postage stamp in honor of Rosa Parks.
Introduced
Jun 7, 2007
S. 1574: Teaching Residency Act
Introduced
May 24, 2007
S. 1513: Predominantly Black Institution Act of 2007
Introduced
May 17, 2007
S. 1430: Iran Sanctions Enabling Act
Introduced
May 14, 2007
S. 1389: Climate Change Education Act
Introduced
May 7, 2007
S. 1324: National Low-Carbon Fuel Standard Act of 2007
Introduced
May 3, 2007
S. 1306: Lead Free Toys Act of 2007
Introduced
May 2, 2007
S. 1271: Homecoming Enhancement Research and Oversight (HERO) Act
Introduced
Apr 25, 2007
S. 1222: STOP FRAUD Act
Introduced
Apr 20, 2007
S. 1181: Shareholder Vote on Executive Compensation Act
Introduced
Apr 18, 2007
S. 1151: Health Care for Hybrids Act
Introduced
Apr 10, 2007
S. 1084: Homes for Heroes Act of 2007
Introduced
Mar 29, 2007
S. 1068: Healthy Communities Act of 2007
Introduced
Mar 29, 2007
S. 1067: Healthy Places Act of 2007
Introduced
Mar 23, 2007
S. 976: Genomics and Personalized Medicine Act of 2007
Introduced
Mar 15, 2007
S. 906: Mercury Market Minimization Act of 2007
Introduced
Mar 8, 2007
S. 823: Microbicide Development Act
Introduced
Mar 7, 2007
S. 795: Citizenship Promotion Act of 2007
Introduced
Mar 6, 2007
S. 768: Fuel Economy Reform Act
Introduced
Mar 6, 2007
S. 767: Fuel Economy Reform Act
Introduced
Mar 1, 2007
S. 737: Voter Advocate and Democracy Index Act of 2007
Introduced
Feb 28, 2007
S. 713: Dignity for Wounded Warriors Act of 2007
Introduced
Feb 27, 2007
S. 692: VA Hospital Quality Report Card Act of 2007
Introduced
Feb 16, 2007
S. 674: Transparency and Accountability in Military and Security Contracting Act of 2007
Introduced
Jan 30, 2007
S. 433: Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007
Introduced
Jan 4, 2007
S. 133: American Fuels Act of 2007
Introduced
Jan 4, 2007
S. 117: Lane Evans Veterans Health and Benefits Improvement Act of 2007
Introduced
Jan 4, 2007
S. 116: STEP UP ACT OF 2007
Introduced
Jan 4, 2007
S. 115: Oil SENSE Act
Introduced
Jan 4, 2007
S. 114: Innovation Districts for School Improvement Act
Introduced
Jul 29, 2008
S.Con.Res. 96: A concurrent resolution commemorating Irena Sendler, a woman whose bravery saved the lives of thousands during the Holocaust and remembering her legacy of courage, selflessness, and hope.
Introduced
Sep 17, 2007
S.Con.Res. 46: A concurrent resolution supporting the goals and ideals of Sickle Cell Disease Awareness Month.
Introduced
Sep 12, 2007
S.Con.Res. 44: A concurrent resolution expressing the sense of Congress that a commemorative postage stamp should be issued honoring Rosa Louise McCauley Parks.
Introduced
Jan 31, 2007
S.Con.Res. 5: A concurrent resolution honoring the life of Percy Lavon Julian, a pioneer in the field of organic chemistry and the first and only African-American chemist to be inducted into the National Academy of Sciences.
Introduced
Nov 1, 2007
S.J.Res. 23: A joint resolution clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.
Introduced
Jul 25, 2008
S.Res. 628: A resolution expressing support for the designation of Disability Pride Day and recognizing that all people, including people living with disabilities, have the right, responsibility, and ability to be active, contributing members of society and fully engaged as citizens of the United States.
Introduced
Nov 15, 2007
S.Res. 383: A resolution honoring and recognizing the achievements of Carl Stokes, the first African-American mayor of a major American city, in the 40th year since his election as Mayor of Cleveland, Ohio.

[Outsydr]

...on one side, you have a strong anti american theme, and on the other you have a very pro alaskan theme....why do I say that?...cause living up there the people that are party to that, do it not because they hate america, but because they love Alaska, and believe that it would be better on its own.

This has a familiar flavor to me. I recognize it for its separatism, but I'm having trouble placing where I've heard it before...

Oh, yeah. I remember where I heard it.

"A separatist desires that his people should have freedom and independence from domination by other peoples, and to that end he works for the day when his people shall be able to live and provide for themselves in their own nation, without the burden of an underclass or overclass comprised of other peoples....."
Kevin Alfred Strom
A Native Alaskan

He then goes on to say:

"...A separatist specifically does not desire to be an overclass. He does not want to rule over any other people. In fact, a separatist does not want a multiracial society at all."

The latest sugar coating that segreactionists are adding to their invective often include the kinds of 'we're not saying this because we hate (_______), but because we love ourselves!' kind of thing. Louis Farakhan has used it. David Duke has used it. Congrats, White. I hope you're proud of the company you're keeping.

...While members of the various groups that Obama's been tied to do what they do, cause they hate America.

Name ONE group that Obama has been a member of that can be classified as unpatriotic or hateful of America. Name ONE. Because no matter what you conjure up, you're never going to find anything in Obama's past or present that could be more unpatriotic than your attempt to justify some isolationist wish to break up our nation.

...Especially one that smacks of the same rhetorical stripe as that that of petty racist (and kiddie porn fan) Kevin Alfred Strom.

[Space Tycoon]

As a libertarian and all-around freedom lover, I have no problem with the Alaskan Independence Party. More power to them. Local communities should have the right to secede from oppressive federal states, when there is a clear majority will to do so.

The fact that AIP is pro-Canadian, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with my opinion. :wink:







.

[NotAFan]

HAHAHA! This thread is gonna live for ever! For ever! It ain't never gonna die!.......... What's that you say?......I just killed it? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Al-Dog]

According to UK’s Daily Express the father of Bristol Palin’s baby had stated on his MySpace page that he didn’t want children.

I'M A REDNECK BRAGS FATHER OF PALIN GIRL'S BABY (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/59660/I-m-a-readneck-brags-father-of-Palin-girl-s-baby)
THE braggart who got the American vice-presidential candidate’s daughter pregnant has described himself as a “redneck” who doesn’t want children.
The Daily News, on the other hand, says that he’s “psyched” to be a father. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/republican_race/2008/09/02/2008-09-02_bristol_palins_baby_daddy_is_psyched_to_.html)

[neglet]

isn't Obama's COMPLETE lacke of experiance just as important?.... He feel into his senate seat cause his popular rival fell into a sex scandal, he's only been a Senator for 4 years, and he's spent a chunk of that running for President, he has sat on no commities, and hasn't been apart of any MAJOR bill's.

Let me just say ... George W. Bush had only been governor of Texas for four years before he ran for President. That was his first political experience; previous to that he spent his time earning "business" experience that a) wasn't very successful and b) he mostly got by trading on his name. Yet in 2000 Republicans thought he was a better candidate than John McCain.

In contrast, Obama was a community organizer and state senator before he was a U.S. Senator, and he earned all that through his own hard work, not by inheriting it from Daddy or Daddy's friends. Oh, and Obama's not a complete retard; he can actually speak the English language. So I'd say in comparison to our current president, who was favored over McCain by his own party, Obama is extremely well-qualified.

Regarding Palin's teenaged daughter: she's not the point, unless the Republicans try to push a "family values" agenda, in which case we have the right to question its efficacy. Also, I wouldn't believe anything the Daily Express or the Daily News publish, and it's true teenage pregnancy has been on the rise over the past couple of years. Blame Britney, Jamie-Lynn, and the whole chase-celebrity-babies culture.

[whitetemplar78]

Congrats, White. I hope you're proud of the company you're keeping.

Im keeping?....so I raise another angle, another point of view lets say, and suddenly im in the same company as David Duke? Im sorry im not on my knees kissing Obama's ass as the second coming my friend, im sorry that i think different then you. Having a different point of view does not in anyway give you permission to lump me in with a bunch of rasicst bastards. Your pretty sly on here, and take digs at anyone thats not a anti gun hating tree hugging dem humping hippie, and im sorry but its getting old. Do I think Obama's a better choice then Bush?...hah of course, Jakester's a better choice for godsake, do I think at THIS POINT that he's better then McCain, no I do not, that does not make me a gun totting loon that wants to nuke the world in time for my corn flakes. It makes me a concerned citizen that would prefer someone that has more experiance and training, then someone that has been a US Senator for only a few short years. If you try to equate community service, and a stint in a state senate as better then over 26 years of public service, in the Military, and US Senate then your wrong, im sorry, just wrong, your letting your love of this man, blind you to the facts.

I like Obama, I really do, but I just wish he had waited for alittle more seasoning before he ran, but he didn't and he's going up against someone with vast more experiance and training that yerns for change just as much as he himself does, so that pushes my own personal choice to the Republican ticket this fall. I hope and pray, he runs again if he loses, and if he does, he'll have my vote.
As for the evil Alaskians, let me explain something to you. I lived there, these people are VERY proud of their land, and the independent lifestyle they live this is the very root of their independance "movement". When you live there, your so far north, and away from everything it makes you feel like your not part of the rest of the country. So its easy to see how a number of them think it would be better for thier concerns, and interest to take care of themselves. They worry that their needs, and concerns aren't being seen too by Washington since its so far away. Its as simple as that, I personally have never met anyone up there that hated America, not saying they are not there, but I never met them.

Name one thing Obama's been attached too thats anti America?....ummm Rev. Wright....and I know, I know what everyone will say, but lets be honest, he had ties with him at one time, and this nutjob does not like what we as a country stand for, and wouldn't shed too many tears if a nuke went off under the White House...thats just one, the one you asked for.

[Space Tycoon]

When you live there, your so far north, and away from everything it makes you feel like your not part of the rest of the country. So its easy to see how a number of them think it would be better for thier concerns, and interest to take care of themselves. They worry that their needs, and concerns aren't being seen too by Washington since its so far away.

Very similar to the sense of alienation felt by prairie provinces in Canada, ie Alberta, Saskatchewan, etc.





.

[Bill_the_Pony]

I agree, see this brings up my other point, why isn't Jakester's penis running for President?...I mean he'd be good at national defence, gotta protect the home grown tang, he'd help the econmy make hookin legal, and tax it, damn imagine the tax wind fall for that! He'd help the enviroment, he'd make cars illegal, and make all women run topless to where they have to go, and make men stay home and watch football. Hellooooo clean air!....my God America what are we thinking, we have missed the true savior of our country its been in Jakesters tighty whiteys this whole time!!!

PENIS FOR 2012!!!!


He would just whitewash all the issues. :smirk:

[whitetemplar78]

ok, sorry that last one was a long post, ok Kaeos its your turn

Ok, so that long list of commities you listed out, let me address that first
So here's some Government 101. When you get elected into a district, and state that automacticlly gets you placed on certain commities, being a Democrat, or Republicain puts you on others, so even as a newbie your gonna be on some, not the big ones, the ones that really mean something, but that comes with time, ass kissing, lol and experiance. Now the sad man i am, I watch way too much C-Span in a attempt to understand our Government more.....man...I need a life...lol, ok moving on, in watching C-Span you find out quickly that many may sit on a commitie, but that doesn't mean they are there working on them. So I would love to see how much he attends these meetings, how many he has voted apart off, and if any MAJOR things have been done. McCain on the other had has been doing this awhile, and that means he sits, or sat on some of the biggggg ones

Senate Armed Services Committee
Commerce Committee
Indian Affairs Committee
just to name a few.... as for legislation....uhh Kaeos you did read those right?
S.Res. 268: A resolution designating July 12, 2007, as "National Summer Learning Day".uhh???....yahhh

S.Res. 133: A resolution celebrating the life of Bishop Gilbert Earl Patterson........im sorry who cares, why is the Senate debating this?

S.Res. 600: A resolution commemorating the 44th anniversary of the deaths of civil rights workers Andrew Goodman, James Chaney, and Michael Schwerner in Philadelphia, Mississippi, while working in the name of American democracy to register voters and secure civil rights during the summer of 1964, which has become known as "Freedom Summer". sigh......wow

These are just a few, but overall most of what you posted is like this...come on, not one of these is important, and if anything just shows why Congress never gets anything done, cause its too busy with worthless pointless crap like this!
Over all good post, I love all the reasearch you did, im impressed thanks for keeping this a good debate man!.... but im right and your wrong, so nanannanana....hahaah sorry couldn't help it

[Intelligent_Design]

Local communities should have the right to secede from oppressive federal states, when there is a clear majority will to do so.



HAHA!!! No they shouldn't. Alot of Americans die because of that thinking, and the Southern states are still behind. Its called the United States for a reason.

By the way ST you are still my favorite poster here.

[Scotia]

Very similar to the sense of alienation felt by prairie provinces in Canada, ie Alberta, Saskatchewan, etc.





.

There are so many Martimers and Newfies in Fort Mac right now that any mention of secession would likely spawn a labour shortage and cripple the oil sands. Then all the cowboys would have to dump their HMO and climb back on the public purse! :)

Good to see you back, ST.

[Trazalca]

Scotia? ID? Space? All posting in a political thread at the same time?
It's been a LONG time since that's happened here.

Kinda gives me a warm fuzzy. :smirk2:

[Kaeos]

!.... but im right and your wrong, so nanannanana....hahaah sorry couldn't help it

LOL nice try. Changing the subject doesn't make you right, it makes you a crafty wordsmith. What you pointed out was Obama's "Complete lack of experience."

So then I point out just 1 year's worth of the Senate experience he's had, and you changed the subject by effectively saying "yeah.... well it wasn't worthwhile experience" and discount the major bills he has been a part of because of the "fluff" bills. Yet those same "fluff" bills don't disqualify McCain? My point is your holding a different standard for Obama than you do for McCain.

Do John McCain's 18 months of time on the road NOT doing his job count against him as they do against Obama?

The question raised wasn't about what "kind" of experience he's had but whether the guy has shown up or done anything at all in his time in the Senate. NO bearing given to the major work he's done in Chicago or in the Illinois State Senate for 7 years. I won't bother laying out his accomplishments there, because you will automatically discount them as irrelevant, yet I am almost certain you would never critique McCain's voting record and legislative track record the way you do Obama's. Do you see what I am getting at here? The double standard?

Now by your own standards, lets look at Palin again. Because face it. Even though the Vice Presidency is not usually given so much weight, it is crucial in McCain's case given the likelihood he won't survive his term in office. Palin's choice as VP is critical here because she stands a HUGE chance of being handed the reigns some time in the next 4 years. The Mayor of a small town in a State that largely views itself and using your words here "away from everything it makes you feel like your not part of the rest of the country" Then moving on to becoming governor of that same state for LESS time than my youngest son has been alive - (he'll turn 2 in November thank you)

That's it. That's the sum total of what she has to offer us and your saying you are comfortable placing this person in the #2 seat of this entire Nation? A heartbeat from having her finger on the BUTTON? Why? because it means NO Obama? To try and validate my point further - Lets say I was all about McCain. if I was a tried and true McCain supporter, and I knew McCain was going to select someone with only "local" experience, I would have pushed for Juliani. Do you see the difference? Juliani worked on and with all levels of government in the most diverse city in this Country.

When you ask voters to "buy" McCain's Presidency, Palin makes that prospect very scary. Taking it a step beyond "tale of the tape" credentials, what can Palin offer to ALL 300 million Americans? Will she truly "represent" those that are pro life? That favor sensible gun control laws? Athiests? I'm not trying to paint everyone into a corner, but her personal views are pretty well laid out and she seems comfortably seated on the "far Right"

f I was going to vote McCain, Palin as a choice for running mate would have cost him my vote based on her background. But most McCain supporters seem to be sending the message that "I am voting for McCain because he is NOT Obama" and then finding every excuse to justify that by focusing in on Obama's negatives while conveniently ignoring McCain's.

Further, I submit that in selecting her the McCain campaign is now guilty of blatant pandering and playing a gender card. Rational thinking should reveal that. If not for Hilary's success in the Democratic race, I submit that Palin would have been NO WHERE on the list of VP hopefuls. Add to that her "far right" views (and I think that's a fair assessment of her positions) and it seems pretty clear her nomination for VP was a political stunt to gain female votes and shore up conservative votes who have been waning on McCain.

Fox News's own Andrew Napolitano said on the air exactly the point I am trying to make, (yes, I listen to his radio show with the weasly little sports announcer Brian Kilmead) Even he thinks Palin was a bad choice and was chosen for the wrong reasons.

So how about it? Are you able to look beyond Liberal and Conservative lines and critique John McCain and Sarah Palin with the same standards as you apply to Obama? Honestly?

[Outsydr]

...Having a different point of view does not in anyway give you permission to lump me in with a bunch of rasicst bastards.
If you can't see the similarities between what you said and what they say, then I'm not sure what else can be done for you.

...Your pretty sly on here, and take digs at anyone thats not a anti gun hating tree hugging dem humping hippie, and im sorry but its getting old.
Being argumentative is in my nature, and it is how I have conducted myself for the 4 years that I've been posting on this forum. I'm also known for my caustic humor. If you want to be a typical right-winger and catagorize me with the hippies and the tree-huggers, I suppose that's your right. Just so long as you understand that no matter what you spew forth, I know who I am and what my beliefs are.

As for the rest of your post, I won't bother re-populating the ether with it. Dude, I don't give a shit if you like Obama or not, who you plan on voting for, or if your estimation of his experience is enough for him to be president. That's all your opinion. I won't waste your time or mine arguing that. I've done plenty of that on these forums with debaters with far greater skills than you have.

No, see... you'll get a reaction out of me when you say something that I find offensive. And at the top of the list of things I can't stand is to see is someone question someone else's patriotism. These days, it's an all too common tactic from people of your political stripe. When the right wing uses it, the hope is that less learned Americans will be frightened enough by the thought of someone not like them to come over to your way of thinking.

...Name one thing Obama's been attached too thats anti America?....ummm Rev. Wright....and I know, I know what everyone will say, but lets be honest, he had ties with him at one time, and this nutjob does not like what we as a country stand for, and wouldn't shed too many tears if a nuke went off under the White House...thats just one, the one you asked for.
Jeremiah Wright served 6 years in the United States military with distinction. Jeremiah Wright has been a community leader, activist and man of God for over 36 years. And Jeremiah Wright has said some ugly things; things that I don't in anyway agree with. In fact, I think most of the stuff he's been shown to say is stupid and devisive.

But would I ever question his rights as an American citizen to voice his displeasure at the FUCKING unsightly mess that this nation has become in the last 8 years, even if his choice of words smacked of devisiveness? Would I classify Jeremiah Wright as anything less than patriotic? No. Why? Because as an American citizen, he had EVERY RIGHT to say what he said. Hell, that man could have stood on that stage and stated that he likes to whack off looking at films of JFK being assassinated. Gross? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Unpatriotic? Come on, man...

And that's what I bet you're just never going to understand. You make it pretty clear that it's beyond your ability to accept the possibility that an American citizen can say something so harmful about America but still be just as patriotic as you are. It's a sign of someone that doesn't expend a lot of energy appreciating what other people have to say. I don't know if you're aware of this, but your isolationsm shows in how express your views. As an example, in your post, you basically called me out for drinking the left wing Kool Aid by 'blindly supporting' Obama. And yet, there you are... holding another American's patriotism up for ridicule just because he said something YOU didn't like. So, instead of using your god-given gift for reasoning and chalking it up as just another stupid thing that an angry man can say in the middle of an otherwise LONG LIFETIME of giving to his community AND his country, you take the low road and gather your torch and pitchfork like a frightened little hamlet-dweller.

"HE'S NOT ONE OF US!! DESTROY HIM!!"

Humph. Talk about blind...

[NotAFan]

I say the only fair way to settle this election is with a contest of physicality. And Of course by that I mean let's have a good old fashioned Makeout Contest!

[whitetemplar78]

sigh......damnit, Kaeos I had this whole awsome post, in response to your post, but when I tried to post it, it wouldn't let me and I lost everything!!!...aaaahhhggghhhh later on, when im not so burnt out, i'll reply again...lol but it was good!

[whitetemplar78]

Being argumentative is in my nature, and it is how I have conducted myself for the 4 years that I've been posting on this forum. I'm also known for my caustic humor. If you want to be a typical right-winger and catagorize me with the hippies and the tree-huggers, I suppose that's your right. Just so long as you understand that no matter what you spew forth, I know who I am and what my beliefs are.

sigh....I don't know you, and im sure your humor is great, and all that, in fact im sure your a great guy and any other time, sitting down and having a beer would be good times. But on here, you get personal, your subtle, and very good at it, I more then concede, but that doesn't make it right, or you, in fact it demenes your arguement. Why is it so hard for you to disagree, and TALK it out, with out going after a person's character? You'll Defend Rev. Wright, and go after me, claiming im attacking his patriotism. Wake up, you wanted anti-American stance, statements, or groups, I provided that example to you, at no time did I make ANY statement about his "patriotism" But since YOU brought it up, lets see what is patriotism?

Patriotism: devotion to a community as opposed to devotion to one's individual interests without considering what is good for the community.

Rev. Wright MAY have been a great man in the past, but his present self, in no way helps his community, or country. But I don't know in the end, if he is, then I wish he would express in a different view.

And I was in no way calling you a left wing, tree hugger, I made that statement in regards to you defending, liberal views, and jumping right wing views, thats just a fact, ive been reading these boards for years, and have seen it in the past, and now a days. But guess what, thats your right, and views and thats cool, but news flash, im not a right winger, im a independent that leans torwards Moderate Republican at this point in my life, but in my life ive voted both ways.

In the end, you can have a debate without going after someone, on a personal level. Example being me and Kaeos at this point, and time, Jarrod has made it clear that personal attacks aren't cool, and I try to respect that rule. You need to adhere to that yourself, cause if you can't, then just go away, cause in the end it just shows you can't have a debate without being childish about it. If you want me to respect Wright, show me the same courtsey.

[rappites]

Palins Speech:

Same shit she said last week when John McCain introduced her. I expected some new stuff.

Her sarcasam and the way she went after Obama was tasteless. You would think she could have done better.

But, she was trying to talk to the "Good 'ol Boys" so she had to speak in a language they could understand.

Her using her children to get sympatheic votes. She used her babys down syndrome to connect with other people that have children that have disabliities. But, did not say what she will do once she is in the White House. Since she will be our allie.

Did you see the crowd? I thought half of the old peoples bladders were going to burst by the time her speech was done.

Plus, the crowd was so diverse. ~sarcasam~ can you feel it~

[Intelligent_Design]

Palins Speech:

Same shit she said last week when John McCain introduced her. I expected some new stuff.

Her sarcasam and the way she went after Obama was tasteless. You would think she could have done better.

But, she was trying to talk to the "Good 'ol Boys" so she had to speak in a language they could understand.

Her using her children to get sympatheic votes. She used her babys down syndrome to connect with other people that have children that have disabliities. But, did not say what she will do once she is in the White House. Since she will be our allie.

Did you see the crowd? I thought half of the old peoples bladders were going to burst by the time her speech was done.

Plus, the crowd was so diverse. ~sarcasam~ can you feel it~

Well she had to convince The GOP that McCain wasn't completly insane. After this speach she will get the biggest bounce she will ever get. I think the debates might get Ugly. Biden doesn't play around. I hope she is prepared.

She and McCain want to Drag Obama/Biden into the Mud. I don't think they will bite though. They know that the press will fight that battle for them. Its gonna be interesting.

[Gentlemen Death]

I thought she did a rather good job and I am looking forward to more speeches she and the rest of the political parties are going to have.

[Bill_the_Pony]

I just walked by the tv and the news report on the convention pretty much sums up why I despise both parties and the empty, gross caricitures of human beings that occupy them fervently. I'm in no mood to go into my own personal politics that....surprise to hardasses on either side....that agree and disagree on so many levels. But this fanatical devotion to party as if it's a team sport..... I would say this country deserves so much better, but I won't. People want this shit, that's what they get.



Oh, and Rapps....speaking of tasteless.... here you go.

Palin's office decor (http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/hot-or-not/hot-or-not-sarah-palins-alaskan-office-decor-061700) :smirk: Hey, I'm trying to take the spotlight off her kids. :smirk:

[mckracken]

WOW!!! HOLEEEE SHIT! thats funny.

is there any proof that she sold her Alaskan Governor's Private Jet on eBay as she claimed durring her speach tonight?

that would really suck for the next Alaska Governor - He'd have to buy it back! LOL!!!

also she made mention of firing the Alaska Governors private Chef too - any proof of this?

[mckracken]

how many of the "facts" about Obama and Biden can we prove or disprove, based on her speech?

[TrixieB]

how many of the "facts" about Obama and Biden can we prove or disprove, based on her speech?

Here ya go. A quick little fact check (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check)on some stuff that she and McCain have said.

Yesterday, Chris Matthews was in the crowd in St. Paul and asked the people if they were excited about a woman on the ticket. All but one of the women that he spoke with said, "I am excited about a woman, just not this woman." The men seemed to like her, though.

[rappites]

Did anyone check out the rack on Bristol? I know it is wrong to do so on a 17 year old pregnant girl. But, damn.


Also, did anyone see the younger girl holding her down syndrome baby brother...she licked her hand and combed his hair with her hand. It was damn funny. Outy said "is she a cat".

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

I know I am going to set myself up for sh*t loads of flack here but....

.... the reason the women are saying "I like a woman on the ticket, just not this woman on the ticket!" is because she is an ex-beauty queen.

[Al-Dog]

Well you have to admit, if McCain/Palin win, she would be the best looking vice president we’ve ever had, and possibly (given McCain’s age and health issues) president.

[neglet]

I know I am going to set myself up for sh*t loads of flack here but....

.... the reason the women are saying "I like a woman on the ticket, just not this woman on the ticket!" is because she is an ex-beauty queen.

I don't think that's true. I think it's because her relative lack of experience makes her selection feel condescending. "There, there, little girl, you couldn't have an ice cream cone, so here's a lollipop." It's not like there weren't other qualified female Republicans out there. As Peggy Noonan wrote on the WSJ website (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122044753790594947.html?mod=todays_columnists):

Early this morning I saw Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, and as we chatted about the McCain campaign (she thoughtfully and supportively) I looked into her eyes and thought, Why not her? Had she been vetted for the vice presidency, and how did it come about that it was the less experienced Mrs. Palin who was chosen? I didn't ask these questions or mention them, I just thought them. Later in the morning, still pondering this, I thought of something that had happened exactly 20 years before. It was just after the 1988 Republican convention ended. I was on the plane, as a speechwriter, that took Republican presidential nominee George H.W. Bush, and the new vice presidential nominee, Dan Quayle, from New Orleans, the site of the convention, to Indiana. Sitting next to Mr. Quayle was the other senator from that state, Richard Lugar. As we chatted, I thought, "Why him and not him?" Why Mr. Quayle as the choice, and not the more experienced Mr. Lugar? I came to think, in following years, that some of the reason came down to what is now called The Narrative. The story the campaign wishes to tell about itself, and communicate to others. I don't like the idea of The Narrative. I think it is ... a barnyard epithet. And, oddly enough, it is something that Republicans are not very good at, because it's not where they live, it's not what they're about, it's too fancy. To the extent the McCain campaign was thinking in these terms, I don't like that either. I do like Mrs. Palin, because I like the things she espouses. And because, frankly, I met her once and liked her. I suspect, as I say further in here, that her candidacy will be either dramatically successful or a dramatically not; it won't be something in between.

[Space Tycoon]

I know I am going to set myself up for sh*t loads of flack here but....

.... the reason the women are saying "I like a woman on the ticket, just not this woman on the ticket!" is because she is an ex-beauty queen.


That is exactly why the feminists and their fellow-travellers hate her. One reason, anyway.






.

[neglet]

Oh, please. Feminists are threatened because she's pretty? That's so stupid I can't even begin to respond to it.

[Space Tycoon]

HAHA!!! No they shouldn't. Alot of Americans die because of that thinking, and the Southern states are still behind. Its called the United States for a reason.


Well, a lot of people died in the expanding of the US as well, a lot of British, Natives, Mexicans, and Spanish. It works both ways.

Secession need not be a bloody affair, though. It can be handled legally and peacefully through political methods.


By the way ST you are still my favorite poster here.

Back at ya, slim.






.

[Space Tycoon]

There are so many Martimers and Newfies in Fort Mac right now that any mention of secession would likely spawn a labour shortage and cripple the oil sands. Then all the cowboys would have to dump their HMO and climb back on the public purse! :)

Good to see you back, ST.

Hey thanks. I wonder if I should start a thread about our little federal election. Might not quite garner the response level this one has...




.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh, please. Feminists are threatened because she's pretty? That's so stupid I can't even begin to respond to it.

You know what I mean. It's true, most radical man-haters are motivated by a hatred of their own femininity. To see someone who has managed to nurture that aspect of themselves, while also surging ahead in a demanding male-dominated career, is anathema to the Unshorn Sisters of the Apocalypse.




.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh, and Rapps....speaking of tasteless.... here you go.

Palin's office decor (http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/ny/hot-or-not/hot-or-not-sarah-palins-alaskan-office-decor-061700) :smirk: Hey, I'm trying to take the spotlight off her kids. :smirk:

Good lord that's horrific. Nice smooth legs, though... :eyebrow:





.

[neglet]

You know what I mean. It's true, most radical man-haters are motivated by a hatred of their own femininity. To see someone who has managed to nurture that aspect of themselves, while also surging ahead in a demanding male-dominated career, is anathema to the Unshorn Sisters of the Apocalypse.

That's a pretty broad brush you're using there, Spacey. (Bad pun intended.) Sure, there may be some feminists who are self-hating, but I believe most women who consider themselves feminists (like me) don't hate their own feminity, only the emphasis that our society seems to put on feminine looks. And to automatically dismiss or even "hate" Sarah Palin because she is pretty is totally contradictory to the idea that a woman shouldn't be judged by her appearance, but by her qualifications.

So far I have yet to see any virulent hatred against Palin--certainly nothing along the lines of what has been written about Hillary Clinton--just mainly puzzlement, and a feeling that we're being pandered to. I'm certainly not going to vote Republican just because she's been added to the ticket, but I'm at least willing to see what she does before forming any strong opinions about her.

In any case, the important thing to remember about this election is that either candidate is a major improvement over the idiot who's made us an international laughingstock over the last eight years. I don't agree with McCain's policies, but I don't think he'd be a disaster as president.

[Space Tycoon]

I guess when I say feminist I usually mean the nasties, not "regular" women who have some feminist ideas.

I got so fed up with those types in university.





.

[kah]

I just don't think she's that good looking. Especially not enough to garner jealousy.

[Jakester]

I still have an erection. When does Bristol turn 18?

[Space Tycoon]

I just don't think she's that good looking. Especially not enough to garner jealousy.

Matter of taste.





.

[kah]

Absolutely.

[Al-Dog]

I just don't think she's that good looking. Especially not enough to garner jealousy.

You have to admit, whatever your political affiliation, she is a MILF with that librarian wearing the business suit exterior and victorias secret underwear thing going on.

[Jakester]

Matter of taste.





.

I wonder how she tastes...

[KingVoyeur]

Salty.

[Graymatter]

Fishy.

[neglet]

Moosey.

[Intelligent_Design]

Icy

[Outsydr]

In the end, you can have a debate without going after someone, on a personal level. Example being me and Kaeos at this point, and time, Jarrod has made it clear that personal attacks aren't cool, and I try to respect that rule. You need to adhere to that yourself, cause if you can't, then just go away, cause in the end it just shows you can't have a debate without being childish about it. If you want me to respect Wright, show me the same courtsey.
Ahem.

I tell you what: If I've done something wrong, I'm sure the powers that be will advise me of it. They've never hesitated to alert folks if they've stepped over the line. I'll allow THEM to judge. And I will respect and comply with their wishes.

In the meantime, I would ask that you never again presume to quote rules and regs to me OR invite me to the door. You don't have that right. Okay?

[Intelligent_Design]

Well, a lot of people died in the expanding of the US as well, a lot of British, Natives, Mexicans, and Spanish. It works both ways.

Secession need not be a bloody affair, though. It can be handled legally and peacefully through political methods.











.

Do you think that Alaska would be allowed to leave peacefully with all that oil?

[NotAFan]

I say the only way to settle this arguement is for all the women in the forum to get nekkid!

[TrixieB]

I say the only way to settle this arguement is for all the women in the forum to get nekkid!

Who says that we aren't? :smirk:

[Bill_the_Pony]

Do you think that Alaska would be allowed to leave peacefully with all that oil?

Yeah, we may just have to bring Democracy to those fuckers as well. :smirk:

[Outsydr]

Do you think that Alaska would be allowed to leave peacefully with all that oil?

I'll go you one better: Do you think the nation of Alaska could be allowed to peacefully do ANYTHING? That state is legendary for its porky earmarks and entitlements. Imagine how well it'll perform on its own without Big Papa to lean on. I'm so amused by the 'rugged individualism' extolled by SOME people, and yet they've got more US dollars being given to people per capita in Alaska than in any other state.

[Outsydr]

I wonder how she tastes...

Based on what I just posted, I'd say a lot like this guy...

http://www.a-1video.com/Porky%20Pig.jpg

[Intelligent_Design]

Yeah, we may just have to bring Democracy to those fuckers as well. :smirk:

True Alaska is surrounded by Great Socialist regimes, Canada and Russia.:lol: So they may need a Democracy refreasher.

[Intelligent_Design]

I'll go you one better: Do you think the nation of Alaska could be allowed to peacefully do ANYTHING? That state is legendary for its porky earmarks and entitlements. Imagine how well it'll perform on its own without Big Papa to lean on. I'm so amused by the 'rugged individualism' extolled by SOME people, and yet they've got more US dollars being given to people per capita in Alaska than in any other state.

They also have the Highest Reasource Tax In the World. THE WORLD!!!

[Bill_the_Pony]

Also, bringing "democracy" to the unenlightened nations of the 21st Century seems like Cortes bringing Christianity to the Aztecs.

[Space Tycoon]

Do you think that Alaska would be allowed to leave peacefully with all that oil?

Would they be? Oh hell no, America's founding priniciples have no place in the 21st century! Got to keep that military industrial complex up and running and well-funded.

King George would have to send the redcoats to keep that rebellious colony in the Empire. :smirk:




.

[Space Tycoon]

True Alaska is surrounded by Great Socialist regimes, Canada and Russia.:lol: So they may need a Democracy refreasher.

Canada, yes. Russia, not at all. Russia and China at this stage in the game are among the most capitalistic societies in the world, which is why they are surging ahead economically. This is also why the neocons hate them so much--beating us at our own game, now we can't have that.

Neither country has been socialist for years.

Canada, on the other hand, has a lot of socialism, which has given us the illusion of comfort and economic security. It also means that half your income goes to some branch of the government, to be spent on... whatever the government wants.

Fortunately, we still have a thriving private sector, making us closer to Sweden than true socialism.





.

[NotAFan]

I agree with the previous posters we should just nuke Alaska and bore-out the ruins for oil!

[Intelligent_Design]

I agree with the previous posters we should just nuke Alaska and bore-out the ruins for oil!

Cool, then the 300 foot tall mutated Penguins can attack Cananda.:lol:

[omicron]

Wrong end of the globe there, ID. I think we'd have 300ft tall mutated polar bears, which are immensely more scary.

[kah]

Wrong end of the globe there, ID. I think we'd have 300ft tall mutated polar bears, which are immensely more scary.

That's your opinion.





(By the way, whoever is responsible for my inability to quick post is going to suffer. This full reply screen makes me insane.:mad: )

[Senormac]

I voted for Reagan back in '80 and have voted Republican ever since....cuz all I have heard, read and considered over the years since then.....have lead me to identify more with the foundational principles of that body.....which to me are......freedom.....conservatism....paying less of my money to the gov't.....and defense.

And anyways, I know that my vote has limited power......but my prayers have unlimited power !!

BTW.....this thread is a great read. Havn't seen some of your names in a long while. :)

[Jakester]

Freedom?
The band Rage Against the Machine was barred from playing near the convention by police, despite having a legal permit to do so. Why do you think that was? WHo do you think asked the police to make them stop? I'll give you a hint, it starts with "Repub" and ends in "licans."
They love freedom? Sure. For some people -- people who think like they do and hold the same values as them. Gay people and athiests...they don't need freedom.

[Senormac]

Big deal......some anarchist band didn't get to play their crap for music on the same evening as the convention. Who needs em anyways. They are nothing but trouble makers.....spewing forth their destruction, hate and dissention to anyone who will listen. Yea, they are free to be a band like that.......and they should be thankful that they ARE free to be a band like that. It was obviously done with a single intent.....and that was to disrupt the convention......to hell with their permit. Funny how bands like that find acceptance with dems.

[Kaeos]

...to hell with their permit. Funny how bands like that find acceptance with dems.

No see, it goes way beyond that Senor. Rage against the machine is a very outspoken public spectacle meant to achieve the goal as you laid it out. But it's what happened to ordinary citizens that deserves to be addressed.

The level of political crackdown at this convention in St Paul was 2nd only to the same party's convention 4 years ago.

Legal, legitimate groups and organizations were raided, were detained illegally, were censored and ordinary citizens who were protesting peacefully were beaten, arrested and held with no provocation and no cause at this Republican Convention.

Tear gas, Rubber Bullets and Percussion Grenades punctuated a week of fascism in St Paul. Did any of that happen in Denver?

Funny how the only groups in the country that find acceptance with the Republicans are the ones interested limiting the freedoms of others.

[JarrodSarafin]

Perhaps because there's not that many Republican groups out there which stage protests, march, etc as a means of getting their message across, Kaeos.

At least not anywhere near the opposition.

And Rage Against the Machine kicks ass, IMO...So not all moderate Republicans hate them. Let's stop generalizing both parties with broad brushes, people.

[Senormac]

Good point Jarrod about the fact that republicans don't generally form protest groups and anti this that and the other thing meetings.....cuz we're about ideas. If the dems don't like the ideas the repubs come up with.....then they should come up with better ones.....not protest. Thats an idiotic response.

That band still sucks :D

[JarrodSarafin]

I don't think it has to do with ideas so much as the age demographics of parties. Sure, there are young Republicans...but when it comes to college age and younger political minded thinkers, they usually go towards the left side of the equation.

Early 20-College age kids especially. And like some of their parents, who may or may not have been part of the 70's era of march-minded activists, a good march and protest is part of the plan here.

Of course, a lot of those protesters are there for the fun and for some reason, don't vote so it becomes a paradox of sorts. A lot want change..they protest...they march...they chant...but when it comes to election day, a lot are mysteriously absent at the booths.

Oh...and that band still kicks ass. :wink:

[Jakester]

Big deal......some anarchist band didn't get to play their crap for music on the same evening as the convention.
That's the point. They followed the law. They had a right to be there.

Why are you advocating denying them their right to free expression? Because you disagree with them? The Founding Fathers would be ashamed of you.

What happened to "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it?" My point is that it is a big deal. The party you're aligning with, claiming that it honors the Constitution, honors freedom and liberty, does nothing of the sort, and, by your very words above, neither do you.

For the record, I'm not particularly fond of Rage, and think Zach's a bit too militant. I don't agree with everything they say, but I believe that they have a right to say it.

[Kaeos]

Yeah, you guys are probably right, I mean what purpose did protesting ever serve in this country right? People shouldn't bother standing up and organizing and marching against ideas and actions they disagree with. Totally unamerican.
[/sarcasm]

[JarrodSarafin]

Definitely appreciate being strawmanned, K.

[zent]

you're righ

[Outsydr]

I think that WHAT you protest is irrelevant. What’s at issue here is the infringement of the right to peacefully protest. And that’s what we saw at the RNC. There were protesters being actively silenced live on TV. Although I totally disagree with Code Pink’s choice to start yelling during McCain’s acceptance speech (because it infringed on his right to speak), I think it was entirely out of line for the Republicans to take Adam Kokesh’s banner away from him. That banner communicated his feelings in a non-invasive way. But then, it’s not my convention. Their rules may prohibit that kind of thing on the convention floor. Can you imagine how that’s phrased on the charter, though? “You may only shout during a speech if you have something supportive to say. On supportive utterances will be cause for immediate oppression.”

But I suppose the RNC has good reason to be so strict. A big reason why the democrats lost the election in 1968 was because of the disastrous protests at their convention in Chicago. But those protests were not peaceful. People died. Property was destroyed. So I’m guessing the RNC would rather not take any chances and just stymie everyone.

So I can’t agree with Senormac’s choice of the word “freedom” when endorsing his choice of the Republicans. Sure, they defend certain freedoms (capitalism at the top of the list). But I don’t believe that true freedom is in their nature.

[tstone]

And anyways, I know that my vote has limited power......but my prayers have unlimited power !!




FYI, Mac, God's not a Republican.

[Jakester]

As Roger Waters put it, "What God Wants, God Gets."

[Outsydr]

FYI, Mac, God's not a Republican.

He isn't???

Welll, then I'm confused. If He's not, then who does THIS guy think he is?
http://www.texasobserver.org/archives/zst_070112/images/dobson.jpg

[Senormac]

FYI, Mac, God's not a Republican.

This I know stone man...this I know. But you have misunderstood my meaning. I don't pray for one side or person to win over the other....thats what my vote is for. I pray AFTER the election ! I pray for who ever the winner is to have good judgement, to be given wisdom to make hard decisions, and to, if at all possible be at peace. To succeed and lead the country in a good way and with integrity. Do you think I didn't pray for Clinton because he was a dem??? Prayer is a spiritual support system....its a giving thing, not a curse.

Now concerning character.....their is one kind of person, by chosen profession that I just don't care too much for.....because their work seems to me so often to come up with very unjust conclusions. And that is lawyers. I couldn't help but think of the "McDonalds spilt hot coffee lawsuit".....that John Edwards was involved in.....all the while he was running. Are lawyers even concerned with whether something is good or not? And the dems seem to almost always pick someone from the ranks of lawyers to be their guy. Its an immediate strike against them for me. Lawyers are trained in the art of being quite happy that there are unsolved problems .....so that they can make tons of money to solve them. And if they don't solve them.....who cares, they still get paid without obligation trying to be good, honest and righteous.

O'bama is a lawyer. Biden is a lawyer. Edwards is a lawyer. Kerry ( I think is a lawyer?) but was definately a Senator, Clinton was a lawyer, Hillary is a lawyer.......McCain IS NOT a lawyer......Palin IS NOT a lawyer.....Bush IS NOT a lawyer.....Cheney IS NOT a lawyer.......Regan WAS NOT a lawyer.....and you know what those presidents who were not lawyers tended to mostly be? Governors.......their job is to govern. What a stark contrast between a lawyers motives and a governors motives. And let me throw in....that I'm not too hot on Senators either.....but at least McCain has a sincere appreciation for the military (defence) and will put forth, IMO at least some energies towards protecting ...OUR FREEDOM !

And I don't know about that banner thing Outy.....I didn't see it or hear about it. Still, I think you may have hit close to target with your rules on the convention floor observation. Still and once again.......I want to say....just cuz a person is free to do something.....just cuz the law lets them....is no excuse for throwing RESPECT out the window. And I find that respect and freedom make a good team.

There was nothing respectful about that band Rage against the machine playing there. Who set that up I wonder? I looked at their website and the very first word that came up on the screen was the word......ANARCHY. I have no tolerance for that kind of freedom. Its just downright destructive.

[tstone]

but at least McCain has a sincere appreciation for the military (defence) and will put forth, IMO at least some energies towards protecting ...OUR FREEDOM !


I once thought that, but then he said that we could be in Iraq "100 years".

Oh, Lincoln was a lawyer.

Lawyer/not lawyer is a straw man argument.

[Bill_the_Pony]

Okay, it's not just rock concerts being raided. :mad:

The goal of the RNC and Police are to arrest as many peaceful protesters as possible and hold them for 2-3 days so they are not able to protest the convention.



St.
Paul is a police state and RNC not even started yet!


From: RAMBO - www. CampaignForLiberty. com


The police are out of control....they are acting like Nazis!

Glenn Greenwald
Saturday Aug.
30, 2008 12:44 EDT

Massive police raids on suspected protestors in Minneapolis

[updated below (with video) - Update II - Update III]

Protesters here in Minneapolis have been targeted by a series of highly intimidating, sweeping police raids across the city, involving teams of 25-30 officers in riot gear, with semi-automatic weapons drawn, entering homes of those suspected of planning protests, handcuffing and forcing them to lay on the floor, while law enforcement officers searched the homes, seizing computers, journals, and political pamphlets. Last night, members of the St. Paul police department and the Ramsey County sheriff's department handcuffed, photographed and detained dozens of people meeting at a public venue to plan a demonstration, charging them with no crime other than "fire code violations," and early this morning, the Sheriff's department sent teams of officers into at least four Minneapolis area homes where suspected protesters were staying.


Jane Hamsher and I were at two of those homes this morning -- one which had just been raided and one which was in the process of being raided. Each of the raided houses is known by neighbors as a "hippie house," where 5-10 college-aged individuals live in a communal setting, and everyone we spoke with said that there had never been any problems of any kind in those houses, that they were filled with "peaceful kids" who are politically active but entirely unthreatening and friendly. Posted below is the video of the scene, including various interviews, which convey a very clear sense of what is actually going on here.


In the house that had just been raided, those inside described how a team of roughly 25 officers had barged into their homes with masks and black swat gear, holding large semi-automatic rifles, and ordered them to lie on the floor, where they were handcuffed and ordered not to move. The officers refused to state why they were there and, until the very end, refused to show whether they had a search warrant. They were forced to remain on the floor for 45 minutes while the officers took away the laptops, computers, individual journals, and political materials kept in the house. One of the individuals renting the house, an 18-year-old woman, was extremely shaken as she and others described how the officers were deliberately making intimidating statements such as "Do you have Terminator ready?" as they lay on the floor in handcuffs. The 10 or so individuals in the house all said that though they found the experience very jarring, they still intended to protest against the GOP Convention, and several said that being subjected to raids of that sort made them more emboldened than ever to do so.


Several of those who were arrested are being represented by Bruce Nestor, the President of the Minnesota chapter of the National Lawyers' Guild. Nestor said that last night's raid involved a meeting of a group calling itself the "RNC Welcoming Committee", and that this morning's raids appeared to target members of "Food Not Bombs," which he described as an anti-war, anti-authoritarian protest group. There was not a single act of violence or illegality that has taken place, Nestor said. Instead, the raids were purely anticipatory in nature, and clearly designed to frighten people contemplating taking part in any unauthorized protests.


Nestor indicated that only 2 or 3 of the 50 individuals who were handcuffed this morning at the 2 houses were actually arrested and charged with a crime, and the crime they were charged with is "conspiracy to commit riot." Nestor, who has practiced law in Minnesota for many years, said that he had never before heard of that statute being used for anything, and that its parameters are so self-evidently vague, designed to allow pre-emeptive arrests of those who are peacefully protesting, that it is almost certainly unconstitutional, though because it had never been invoked (until now), its constitutionality had not been tested.


There is clearly an intent on the part of law enforcement authorities here to engage in extreme and highly intimidating raids against those who are planning to protest the Convention. The DNC in Denver was the site of several quite ugly incidents where law enforcement acted on behalf of Democratic Party officials and the corporate elite that funded the Convention to keep the media and protesters from doing anything remotely off-script. But the massive and plainly excessive preemptive police raids in Minnesota are of a different order altogether. Targeting people with automatic-weapons-carrying SWAT teams and mass raids in their homes, who are suspected of nothing more than planning dissident political protests at a political convention and who have engaged in no illegal activity whatsoever, is about as redolent of the worst tactics of a police state as can be imagined.



ON THE EVE OF THE RNC.

gNUnaUbAOHU

0lax5_UAywE

EeKKR8Y1cRU

How about this. ....
LIVECAM: Lawyers' Conference Interrupted by Riot Police
More at http://www.theuptake.org. From our livecam: Riot cops in full gear go up to Mayor office to "check in" with peaceful lawyers and journalists. Make sure to watch the last four min...
M9q8X1Vbad0

There's about a hundred other videos. Shall I post them? Or, just go to Youtube and type RNC RAID in search.


Because we all know what a hotbed of anti-American terrorist activity lies in Minnesota. :smirk:

If despising the mediocrity and fear-filled machine that is the Republican party is un-American, then sign me up for the Communist Party now.

more:
http://www.theuptake.org./


Freedom my ass. (or French my ass.)

(recalling a time when a Republican motorcade came thru Laguna Beach and I stood outside my gallery with both fingers up in the air, as they passed by. Relieved to say no police wrestled my fingers to the ground.)

BUT JUST SO THERE IS NO CONFUSION HERE.... I would love to see BOTH parties eliminated.

At SECRET SERVICE CONFISCATES RON PAUL DELEGATES MATERIALS (http://www.federaljack.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2315)

[Senormac]

Yea bill ....but you know there is an organization that called themselves...."recreate '68" out there. And like Outy said above....Chicago was a terrible situation......one that no one wants to see happen again......so I think in light of people organizing under a name like that.......the opposing side (the repubs) AND COPS.... being dressed in full riot gear.....is a good precautionary position. Its a reaction to a threat.

[rappites]

I may be banned for this or not.

But, why is it that so called "followers of Jesus" or "faith based people" are so violent.

I think it such hypocrisy to be "followers of Jesus" since he was for peace among men.

Non-violence.

[Jakester]

"Your kind of freedom?" I thought there was freedom, or not freedom.
Wow.

[Senormac]

I may be banned for this or not.
But, why is it that so called "followers of Jesus" or "faith based people" are so violent.
I think it such hypocrisy to be "followers of Jesus" since he was for peace among men.
Non-violence.

You must be mistaking Jesus for Ghandi rapps. Jesus whooped ass on the crowd who were buying and selling stuff in the temple. But you got it right calling them/us "faith based people". We are faith based.....in we believe in the creator God and his savior/son Jesus.

The problem lies in what people build on their bases, which is all kinds of stuff.....some of it being pretty ugly.

[NotAFan]

I may be banned for this or not.

But, why is it that so called "followers of Jesus" or "faith based people" are so violent.

I think it such hypocrisy to be "followers of Jesus" since he was for peace among men.

Non-violence.

Yes because other religions are non-violent! It's not like in other religiions people light themselves on fire or beat themselves bloody with heavy chains, or have honor killiing, RIGHT.

[kah]

:popcorn:

:rolleyes:

:coffee:

[NotAFan]

I find both Atheists and the religious to be arrogant and stubborn for the most part. Just accept that there are things that you don't know. ACCEPT IT B*TCHES!

[Intelligent_Design]

Yes I think there is a God. I also think he/she IS Laughing his/hers ASS off at these ignorant bastards on this planet.

[rappites]

Why must it be a "god"?

So, if we balk at a govenor running for vice president with only two years experience.

Then how can we trust someone we have never seen?

If you must have faith in something...have faith in yourself, family, community, country and world. Believe in something that you can see. That you can control.

[Outsydr]

I don't pray for one side or person to win over the other....thats what my vote is for. I pray AFTER the election ! I pray for who ever the winner is to have good judgement, to be given wisdom to make hard decisions, and to, if at all possible be at peace. To succeed and lead the country in a good way and with integrity. Do you think I didn't pray for Clinton because he was a dem??? Prayer is a spiritual support system....its a giving thing, not a curse.

Hmmmm.... It must be odd to be confronted by the fact that your prayers have been so resoundinly ignored for...what... seven or so years?