Awwwww...CRAP! McCain is ahead!

[mckracken]

GOP bounce: McCain overtakes Obama (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080907/pl_politico/13228)

John McCain has overtaken Barack Obama in the Gallup daily tracking poll and has his highest level of support in that poll since early May.

McCain leads Obama 48 percent to 45 percent among registered voters, by Gallup’s measure. McCain has so far earned the same convention bounce as Obama, though at a more rapid pace.

Obama peaked at a 5-point convention bounce in polling published last Tuesday. He was ahead 49 percent to 43 percent in the Gallup poll conducted before the Republican convention. He then soared to 50 percent for the first time of the election, by Gallup’s measure, while McCain fell to 42 percent.

McCain’s 5-point to 6-point bounce so far, like Obama’s, remains at par with historical expectations. In the 22 major-party conventions since 1964, the nominee walked away with, on average in most years, a 5-point to 6-point uptick in Gallup’s polls. The presidential polling will likely remain in flux until the middle of next week.

Today's Gallup report continues to include some polling conducted prior to McCain's acceptance speech. Tomorrow's report will be the first to include interviews solely conducted following the close of the GOP convention.

Rasmussen’s daily tracking poll also reported today that when "leaners” are included, Obama and McCain are now tied at 48 percent. That means that, by Rasmussen’s measure, Obama’s 6-point bounce has been erased. CBS News polling had shown the same outcome midway through the GOP convention.

McCain’s resurgence in the polls comes as Nielsen Media Research reported that the Republican convention earned more television viewers than the Democratic convention. Republicans earned an average audience of 34.5 million, while Democrats earned an average viewership of 30.2 million.

Obama, McCain and GOP vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin all earned a similar and record audience for their convention speeches, each nearing about 40 million viewers.
:mad: :headscratch:

[Senormac]

You're gonna be shocked by the time this one is over. I wouldn't be surprised if its a MEGA SWEEP for McCain. Just sayin......I won't be surprised......

[mckracken]

MEGA-SWEEP = MEGA SHEEP = MEGA STUPID. Baaaahhh!!!

just saying... I wont be surprised. I just cant get behind McCain and i'm REPUBLICAN! He should have retired at 65 instead, at 72, he's running (again) for president!

I dunno, I just think we should put some younger blood in the white house.

[NotAFan]

And they all said women weren't stupid enough to vote for someone just because they were also a woman. Looks like they were wrong! Women are more than stupid enough to, so there! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, national news media! HAHAHA! :lol:

[TrixieB]

First of all, I am a woman and I wasn't ever a Hillary supporter and am certainly NOT a Palin supporter, so don't generalize.

Secondly, polls are just a snapshot of yesterday. They have waivered back and forth and will continue to do so. Palin got her "bump" and will get a drop. The only poll that really matters is the official one on November 4.

[Kaeos]

Yeah Trix your absolutely right, the polls swing back and forth every week and the fine print that everyone conveniently doesn't hear is "+/- 3pt margin of error"

Obama's only ever been truly ahead of McCain by maybe 3 or 4 pts at his peak. There is definitely a "bump" in McCain's poll #'s from Friday because of the all Palin news coverage.

I say wait till the debates start. First up is Biden and Palin. Let me ask you something, WHY do you suppose the Republicans put Palin up in front of a few podiums to read speeches to crowds this week, but refused to let her on any of the political shows on Sunday - not even Fox? Because she's has nothing of substance to say if she doesn't have a written speech in front of her to read, she will embarrass them in the public eye with her lack of knowledge "...someone would have to tell me what the Vice President does all day?". Up against Biden in the debate? She will make herself look like a fool to the American people.

Then to McCain and Obama in the debate format? :lol: Anyone remember the Nixon/Kennedy debates? (well I don't but I've seen them read a lot about them) Refer back to Nixon's TV debates against Kennedy. McCain will come out looking a tired, confused alzheimers patient. Watch.

Then watch Obama surge ahead. I predict 10 points in the raw polls, add the margin of error and he'll be 6-7 pts ahead.

Of course as Trixie said, none of it matters until Nov 4th. Sorry Senor, but a McCain landslide is whistful flight of fancy.

[sickness]

Palin is woefully underprepared to be VP. According to insiders, she's cramming on foreign, energy and economic policy from here to the VP debate... because she knows NOTHING about running a country.

Does anyone remember the last time we elected a ticket with a do-nothing governor?

P.S. She was on John McCain's pork-barrel hitlist just 2 years ago.

[WhiteKnight]

Yeah Trix your absolutely right, the polls swing back and forth every week and the fine print that everyone conveniently doesn't hear is "+/- 3pt margin of error"


Thank you, Kaeos, you saved me the trouble of pointing this out.

I don't know if I can say I expect Obama to run away with it in the debates, however. I heard Obama speak at State College during the Pennsylvania Primary and have kept on listening. In all of that I have not once heard him truly and directly answer a question on the issues. I've been told over an over again I can learn his stand on the issues by looking at his Web site, but (call me old fashioned I suppose) I think I'd rather hear it directly from the horse's mouth.

Perhaps I will finally hear something during the debates other than his familiar (and dare I say tiresome) rhetoric about bringing change to Washington that will bring me solidly into his corner. Until then, I'll be casting a write in vote for Clinton.

[Strider]

I think that polls in general, but especially election polls, are just a bunch of BS for the news outlets to talk about. Without polls to drone on about, the news people might just have to talk about the actual candidates instead of focusing on the "popularity contest" aspect of an election.

[neglet]

Polls remind me of Mark Twain's old adage: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." And polling data is the most unreliable kind of statistcs there are, so make that "lying lies from big fat lying liars."

[Outsydr]

I didn't buy into the polls when Obama was ahead. What will matter is the ELECTION. Polls are about as stable as Illinois weather.

[Graymatter]

It boggles the mind that the Republicans can aim so low, yet still get a bounce.

[tstone]

People can be stupid.

[rappites]

It is really showing how shallow women are that were Clinton supporters.

[Intelligent_Design]

Polls are extortion tools....Nothing more...Nothing less... The media wants elections to be close. If the polls show Obama has pulled ahead by 3 points, then McCain will spend more money on Ads.And Vice Versa. I work at TV Station I see it all the time.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

I know there has been Obama mania, but from the outside of the USA looking in I really can't see a black Democrat beating McCain in a country which re-elected George Bush last time.

Am I missing something ?

[mckracken]

well i just got off the phone with my McCain/Palin supporting christian brother who made some startling revelations about Obama:

1) he's evil, something doesnt play right about him and he's evil, evil intentions evil spiritual twist on religion and Christianity.
2)he's Muslim, not Christian.
3)he's going to sell us out to the terrorists by meeting with and having tea with them.
4)He apparantly signed, supported and passed a bill (in his state) that would "allow botched abortions (live births) to be taken into a separate room (a dirty laundry room) and left to die." i cant find any facts on this one...at all.

5)"anybody not willing to step up and start slinging mud at his political opponent has got to be hiding something big from everyone."

6) he was never in the military (apparantly leaning towards McCain's military background)
7) At the saddleback Chuch in Los Angeles, on being asked when life begins (or something like that) Obama said "talk to someone who's in a higher position of authority than me"

I would go on and on but quite frankly, the answers I was getting were laughable at best but he believes all this stuff and I asked him to send me email links to prove this stuff...anything at all...

now its after midnight and I havent had an email from him. (big shock)

I know he's a republican so I also know the crowd he hangs with (who are also staunch Republicans and are all very PRO McCain supporters) which is why I stopped attending the tuesday night biblestudy at his house (he isnt the leader)

I'd hardly call him stupid, he's best described as "extremely opinionated" but i thought fo sure I'd have gotten an email from him by now...

some youtube video... something.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Sounds as committed, yet blinkered, as a Socialist leftie in the UK.... just the other way!

[rappites]

All my friends in Southern Indiana have the same views on Obama.

They will believe in anything rather than admit that they do not want a ni@@er in the white house.

I tried to tell them that could be on of my kids in forty years. But, they don't buy it.

Tunnel vision. They would rather have someone that reminds them of their grandfather as president.

[TrekSucksHard]

Obama is a fraud!

Go McCain/Palin!

http://i33.tinypic.com/34qmmnl.jpg

[tstone]

Gee, Sux is pushing for the paper dollie and McSame.

Big surprise.

[Al-Dog]

well i just got off the phone with my McCain/Palin supporting christian brother who made some startling revelations about Obama:

1) he's evil, something doesnt play right about him and he's evil, evil intentions evil spiritual twist on religion and Christianity.
2)he's Muslim, not Christian.
3)he's going to sell us out to the terrorists by meeting with and having tea with them.
4)He apparantly signed, supported and passed a bill (in his state) that would "allow botched abortions (live births) to be taken into a separate room (a dirty laundry room) and left to die." i cant find any facts on this one...at all.

5)"anybody not willing to step up and start slinging mud at his political opponent has got to be hiding something big from everyone."

6) he was never in the military (apparantly leaning towards McCain's military background)
7) At the saddleback Chuch in Los Angeles, on being asked when life begins (or something like that) Obama said "talk to someone who's in a higher position of authority than me"

I would go on and on but quite frankly, the answers I was getting were laughable at best but he believes all this stuff and I asked him to send me email links to prove this stuff...anything at all...

now its after midnight and I havent had an email from him. (big shock)

I know he's a republican so I also know the crowd he hangs with (who are also staunch Republicans and are all very PRO McCain supporters) which is why I stopped attending the tuesday night biblestudy at his house (he isnt the leader)

I'd hardly call him stupid, he's best described as "extremely opinionated" but i thought fo sure I'd have gotten an email from him by now...

some youtube video... something.

I can understand voting against Obama because you disagree with his tax policies or his stand on the war or how he plans to have the government more involved with healthcare.

What I find so amazing about some of the anti Obama fear mongering rhetoric, Is that it’s so obviously insane, paranoid BS. “I’m not voting for Obama because he’s the boogieman.”

Come on; if you can’t come up with something half way legit, at least be honest with yourself and say what you really mean “I’m not voting for Obama because he’s black and I find black people scary.”

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

If anyone did say "I am not voting for Obama because he is black!" they would be pilloried for it.

[tstone]

There's opinions, and then there's INFORMED OPINIONS. For the former, the other descriptive is "full of shit".

[TrekSucksHard]

Gee, Sux is pushing for the paper dollie and McSame.

Big surprise.
And you like the Messiah and Joe "foot in my mouth" Biden- not a surprise either.

[tstone]

Well, better than that than yet another vote for eight years of failed policy which has cost the US pretty much in every damn category that can be measured.

No, I'm not voting for that. And "Messiah"? You're a freakin DITTOHEAD, TOO?!?

:lol:

:chewiedance:

[omicron]

It blows my mind that people who sincerely believe he's Muslim and this is some sort of Manchurian Canidate type situtation.

As if he's going to get elected and during his inauguration he'll stand up and yell "ALLAH AKBAR!" and detonate a nuclear device. People are so fucking stupid.

[tstone]

It blows my mind that people who sincerely believe he's Muslim and this is some sort of Manchurian Canidate type situtation.

As if he's going to get elected and during his inauguration he'll stand up and yell "ALLAH AKBAR!" and detonate a nuclear device. People are so fucking stupid.

Yes they are, and/or they've watched too much 24.

[neglet]

Aww, I don't think even "24" has gone as low as to use "hypnotically programmed" terrorists. Usually they're just pure evil.

Like Obama. Isn't that some kind of voodoo name, anyway? :p

[Jakester]

completely off topic:

Lick the Lollipop.

[Bill_the_Pony]

I must be dyslexic or in need of better glasses, because everytime I see the name of this thread, I keep thinking that I see "McCain is dead!"

:confused:

[neglet]

No, McCain is a big giant head. He's an alien!

[Intelligent_Design]

All my friends in Southern Indiana have the same views on Obama.

They will believe in anything rather than admit that they do not want a ni@@er in the white house.






Trust me. Here In middle Indiana some people think the same way. Me being black this view doesn't even bother me that much. Thats the way the world is. I didn't make the world I just live in it.

[Outsydr]

Obama is a fraud!

Go McCain/Palin!

http://i33.tinypic.com/34qmmnl.jpg

Fraud? You want to hurl a word like "Fraud" at Barack Obama?

Okay then. Try this on for size:

Mrs. Palin's 'great' line about telling the U.S. Congress "thanks but no thanks" on the Bridge to Nowhere project? Yah. Sure she did.

From Reuters:
In the city Ketchikan, the planned site of the so-called "Bridge to Nowhere," political leaders of both parties said the claim was false and a betrayal of their community, because she had supported the bridge and the earmark for it secured by Alaska's Congressional delegation during her run for governor.

And there's more:

Last year, Palin announced she was stopping state work on the controversial project, earning her admirers from earmark critics and budget hawks from around the nation. The move also thrust her into the spotlight as a reform-minded newcomer.

The state, however, never gave back any of the money that was originally earmarked for the Gravina Island bridge, said Weinstein and Elerding.

In fact, the Palin administration has spent "tens of millions of dollars" in federal funds to start building a road on Gravina Island that is supposed to link up to the yet-to-be-built bridge, Weinstein said.

"She said 'thanks but no thanks,' but they kept the money," said Elerding about her applause line.

Former state House Speaker Gail Phillips, a Republican who represented the Kenai Peninsula city of Homer, is also critical about Palin's reversal on the bridge issue.

"You don't tell a group of Alaskans you support something and then go to someplace else and say you oppose it," said Phillips, who supported Palin's opponent, Democrat Tony Knowles, in the 2006 gubernatorial race.

A press release issued by the governor on September 21, 2007 said she decided to cancel state work on the project because of rising cost estimates."

"Rising cost estimates." Not because she was some hero of the taxpayer, mind you... but because she knew it was going to take more work and bring more exposure to this pig of a project.

Not enough? Did you know that she has also been having the Alaska taxpayer pony up for her meals?

from the Washington Post:
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has billed taxpayers for 312 nights spent in her own home during her first 19 months in office, charging a "per diem" allowance intended to cover meals and incidental expenses while traveling on state business.

The governor also has charged the state for travel expenses to take her children on official out-of-town missions. And her husband, Todd, has billed the state for expenses and a daily allowance for trips he makes on official business for his wife.

Palin, who earns $125,000 a year, claimed and received $16,951 as her allowance, which officials say was permitted because her official "duty station" is Juneau, according to an analysis of her travel documents by The Washington Post.

The governor's daughters and husband charged the state $43,490 to travel, and many of the trips were between their house in Wasilla and Juneau, the capital city 600 miles away, the documents show.

Here's my favorite part:
During her speech at the Republican National Convention last week, Palin cast herself as a crusader for fiscal rectitude as Alaska's governor. She noted that she sold a state-owned plane used by the former governor. "While I was at it, I got rid of a few things in the governor's office that I didn't believe our citizens should have to pay for," she said to loud applause.

Also, you know that the gourmet chef she claims to have fired? She didn't fire her. She changed the chef's title and reduced her profile, but the woman still cooks for Mrs. Palin's family TO THIS DAY!

Nothing she's done here is illegal, I know. But then, nothing Barack Obama's has done is illegal, either. So if you're going to participate in sniping of an honest man, be prepared to get a slapped back.

Your choice for Vice President is a fucking liar and a hypocrate.

[Intelligent_Design]

Your choice for Vice President is a fucking liar and a hypocrate.

And A lipstick wearing pig!!!!:lol:

[TrekSucksHard]

Compared to Biden, Palin is an angel- this is the guy who plagiarized JFK in his failed presidential run and is the ultimate insider in Washington and Obama claims they are for change? Give me a break! The American public has finally seen that Obama is full of hot air and Palin is his nemesis since they are both the same- both celebrities.

I may not like McCain on many issues but at least he doesn't flip-flop it like Nobama does just to get votes and for that he gets my respect. Nobama is a demagouge.

[TrekSucksHard]

Well, better than that than yet another vote for eight years of failed policy which has cost the US pretty much in every damn category that can be measured.

No, I'm not voting for that. And "Messiah"? You're a freakin DITTOHEAD, TOO?!?

Beats being a dickhead.

Newsflash = McCain is not W. He may be worse or he may be better but I'll take him over Nobama anytime.

[Intelligent_Design]

I may not like McCain on many issues but at least he doesn't flip-flop it like Nobama does just to get votes and for that he gets my respect. Nobama is a demagouge.

Wait you don't like McCain or Obama? Have fun voting for Nadar. HAHAHA!!!! The funny thing about this Election is McCain knows the country has shifted Left. The Neo-cons are out of business. Hillary Clinton was right back in 05 when she made that comment. This election signals the death of NEOCONism as we know it No matter who wins. John McCain will take on the remaining Members of his own party that sabatoged his first presidental bid by saying he was it conservative enough. Sarah Palin is a Tool used to fool The ultraconservative base never really supported John McCain. Its gonna be Funny as hell if he gets elected he will reach across to the Dems on every issue. It will be like Obama-lite. Mark my words.

[TrekSucksHard]

I'm a Libertarian who will vote McCain/Palin. No way will I vote for Barr (he's an *sshole) or for Nader.

And you may be right about whats gonna happen but either way I won't vote Obama.

[Intelligent_Design]

I'm a Libertarian who will vote McCain/Palin. No way will I vote for Barr (he's an *sshole) or for Nader.
.

If I were you I wouldn't vote at all. True Libertarian beliefs will NOT be realised by either person running. But eh. To each his own I guess? :ohwell: If there were two people running for office that are against what I believe I would just stay home. That being said, I will vote Obama in Nov. I'm open to voting McCain but he would have to do two things for that to happen.Work to 1) Drop the Dividend Tax 2) Drop the earned income tax. I would switch my vote in a second.

[mckracken]

completely off topic:

Lick the Lollipop.

and remember, a pig with a lollipop is STILL A PIG!

[tstone]

Beats being a dickhead.


Actually, it's not, you festering douche. You can be a "dickhead" without being a braindead robot letting some radio gasbag pull your strings.


Newsflash = McCain is not W. He may be worse or he may be better but I'll take him over Nobama anytime.

Of course you will, 'cause Rush said it's cool.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[TrekSucksHard]

Whats cool is not being convinced by a guy who says absolutely nothing, jackass- I guess youre a Seinfeld fan too. :lol:

[tstone]

No, that's NOT cool, and very stupid, to look back on the last eight years and say, yes, more please.

Oh, and Seinfeld sucks.

:smirk:

[rappites]

You two go to your corner on time outs.

After you have been in the time outs according to how old you are. ~Which could be awhile.

I want you to hug and say your sorry for calling each other names.

[Woodwraith]

This is a little off topic, but here's a bit of trivia. I was watching an episode of Alf yesterday and Joe Biden's name came up. Considering how long ago Alf was aired on TV, I've come to realize, like McCain, Joe Biden has been in the business just too damn long.

Regardless of who wins this year, after the promisses are made and the votes are in it'll be back to politics as usual. Obama will just pass every democratic bill written or McCain will sit there trying to remember what the agenda was supposed to be at the summit meeting. So which one is the lesser of the 2 evils? I can't figure it out this year.

Truely any one of them will be better then Bush. There are moments when I find myself leaning towards Obama, but then something comes up that makes me question that motive. I watched the speaches from both candidates. I liked Obama's speech more than McCain's. I liked what Obama had to say. But it caould have been all fluff which is what I expect from any politian. McCain was too busy telling why the other guys wasn't a good choice until 2/3rds of the way into his speech he stated what he would do in office. Of course, he said pretty much what Obama said so there you go. I guess it kinda sounds like I've made up my mind.

When I was 18, I worked as a landscaper/gardener for this milionaire, who was 72 at the time. I remember going in to pick up a my check. While he was sitting there at his desk having a conversation on the phone he just simply fell asleep, I was barely able to hear the voice on the other end saying "Hello?... Hello?...Mr Ostrow?" I kinda see McCain that way. I wonder if he can stay awake during a UN meeting or whatever. If Obama is president I'm afraid my taxes are going to go up despite the promiss he made to cut taxes. Too bad we don't have a wild card candidate like we did when Perot was running. Not saying he was a good choice. But he did make the debates interesting. Anyone remember those SNL skits?

I think I'll wait til after the debates. Maybe it'll be easier to decide then. But then maybe all we'll get is a dog and pony show. :shakehead:

[Woodwraith]

Wow! I can't believe that posted. I was almost certain I would have been logged out when I clicked the submit button. :)

[neglet]

I may not like McCain on many issues but at least he doesn't flip-flop it like Nobama does just to get votes and for that he gets my respect. Nobama is a demagouge.

Oh, holy titties of Isis, McCain isn't a flip-flopper?


In 2003 and 2004, McCain opposed the Bush tax cuts, but in 2008 he's for them
In 2002, McCain called Jerry Falwell an "agent of intolerance"; candidate McCain gave an address at Falwell's Liberty University in 2006
McCain co-sponsored a finance reform bill in 2003, but in 2006 he took his name off the bill
In 2001, McCain co-sponsored a bill to regulate gun shows. In 2007 he said "I believe the Second Amendment ought to be preserved, which means no gun control."
In 1999, McCain said he was against overturning Roe v. Wade, claiming it would be dangerous for women. Today Candidate McCain wants a constitutional amendment banning abortion.
In 1999 McCain opposed offshore drilling. Today he's for it.
Then of course, there's the biggie: McCain introduced an immigration reform bill in 2006, and in 2008 said he wouldn't vote for it, only four days after saying as President he would sign it into law.

Just Google "McCain flip flop" and you find dozens of websites, many with network and newspaper links.

Of course, I'm a flip flopper, too. In 2000, I would have seriously considered voting for John McCain. He was a maverick, not beholden to the Republican Party. In 2008, there's no way I'd vote for John McCain, who's become a good little Republican soldier who panders to the right wing.

[whitetemplar78]

I think one of my main policy fears I have of Obama, is government size, its one of the MAJOR flaws of the Democratic party I think, is the knee jerk reaction to think the government can fix, and run anything, im a staunch believer that if anything, we need a SMALLER federal government. It was this, that pissed me off the most with Bush in fact, as the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. At the time I was in the Coast Guard when this all went down, and we were one of the main Agenices that was moved to DHS, and man can you spell cluster fuck???? Its not that at heart was against creating a group tasked with protection of the homeland, but why a whole new department?? In a government thats too big already, in a government where you KNOW it would be mishandled this was a bad idea, from step one, and sure enough it was so messed up, that even today their still working out the kinks.
Again its alot of his tax ideas, yah he'll cut taxes on alot of little guys, but we can't forget that as much as we hate big bussiness they do drive this econmny. As much as its suffered, it can't afford a larger tax burden. Which he does propose to do. Its easy to say, i'll cut taxes on you, and im gonna go after the fat cats, we're gonna tax wind fall profits, we're gonna tax corporate greed!!! and the masses will line up, happy as pie thinking this is how we do it, but the long term affect is gonna bite us in the ass, as more and more companys just find it cheaper, and easier to do bussiness overseas. This scares me the most, cause I live in Michigan and ive seen first hand what its like when big bussiness just up and leaves seeking greener pastures elsewhere, neglet can back me on this too. We need to bring companys back to our shores, we need to offer tax deals, and breaks!, example: again my home state our Governor just passed a big tax break bill for movie Production companys to come here to film, and work. In just under a year since this, dozens of companys have arrived looking for filming sites, and places for on site studios, several have come to my town of Jackson alone, bringing in much needed captial and money to our local businesses. This means jobs, which means income, which means revenue for the government.
As for the flip flopping....come on guys, their both politicions!!!! this is what they do. McCain, and Obama have both been busted on it, but come on, back in '99 I WAS AGAINST OFF SHORE DRILLING!!, now? lol DRILL BABY, DRILL, DRILL IN MY LIVING ROOM, IF IT HELPS DROP PRICES FOR NOW!!! Im not blind this isn't gonna save us all, but its a good stopgap till we CAN find something long term. They are BOTH human and their views, and beliefs can and DO change, so thats really a weak argument on both sides and I don't judge either on that. And jumping on McCain on his age?? come on Regan was the same age when he was President and he is seen by both parties as one of the best we've hand in the last 3 decades, so if thats bad, then bring on the oldies!!!

[whitetemplar78]

UHHHGGG God looking back at that beast of a post, I need to do shorter ones....lol

[Intelligent_Design]

I think one of my main policy fears I have of Obama, is government size, its one of the MAJOR flaws of the Democratic party I think, is the knee jerk reaction to think the government can fix, and run anything, im a staunch believer that if anything, we need a SMALLER federal government. It was this, that pissed me off the most with Bush in fact, as the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. At the time I was in the Coast Guard when this all went down, and we were one of the main Agenices that was moved to DHS, and man can you spell cluster fuck???? Its not that at heart was against creating a group tasked with protection of the homeland, but why a whole new department?? In a government thats too big already, in a government where you KNOW it would be mishandled this was a bad idea, from step one, and sure enough it was so messed up, that even today their still working out the kinks.
Again its alot of his tax ideas, yah he'll cut taxes on alot of little guys, but we can't forget that as much as we hate big bussiness they do drive this econmny. As much as its suffered, it can't afford a larger tax burden. Which he does propose to do. Its easy to say, i'll cut taxes on you, and im gonna go after the fat cats, we're gonna tax wind fall profits, we're gonna tax corporate greed!!! and the masses will line up, happy as pie thinking this is how we do it, but the long term affect is gonna bite us in the ass, as more and more companys just find it cheaper, and easier to do bussiness overseas. This scares me the most, cause I live in Michigan and ive seen first hand what its like when big bussiness just up and leaves seeking greener pastures elsewhere, neglet can back me on this too. We need to bring companys back to our shores, we need to offer tax deals, and breaks!, example: again my home state our Governor just passed a big tax break bill for movie Production companys to come here to film, and work. In just under a year since this, dozens of companys have arrived looking for filming sites, and places for on site studios, several have come to my town of Jackson alone, bringing in much needed captial and money to our local businesses. This means jobs, which means income, which means revenue for the government.
As for the flip flopping....come on guys, their both politicions!!!! this is what they do. McCain, and Obama have both been busted on it, but come on, back in '99 I WAS AGAINST OFF SHORE DRILLING!!, now? lol DRILL BABY, DRILL, DRILL IN MY LIVING ROOM, IF IT HELPS DROP PRICES FOR NOW!!! Im not blind this isn't gonna save us all, but its a good stopgap till we CAN find something long term. They are BOTH human and their views, and beliefs can and DO change, so thats really a weak argument on both sides and I don't judge either on that. And jumping on McCain on his age?? come on Regan was the same age when he was President and he is seen by both parties as one of the best we've hand in the last 3 decades, so if thats bad, then bring on the oldies!!!


Off shore drilling will not change the price of oil one bit. OPEC would cut production to keep the price around 75-125 dollars a barrel. We would gain nothing. Also the McCain plan of suspending the gas tax for the Summer months would do nothing because it would increase consumption which would drive up prices.

[Outsydr]

UHHHGGG God looking back at that beast of a post, I need to do shorter ones....lol

hehe... yeah. And adding a lot more common sense wouldn't hurt, either.

[mckracken]

i still havent recieved any emails from my Christin Republican friend Mike to back up his outragious claims that Obama is "demonically evil" and "hiding something because he isnt mudsliging" or "botched live abortions taken into a dirty laundry room to die"....

nothing....

Bridge to Nowhere... pigs and lipstick....

[whitetemplar78]

hehe... yeah. And adding a lot more common sense wouldn't hurt, either.

hah, then give me uncommon anyday!
:eyebrow:

[TrekSucksHard]

Wow, everyone here is an Obamaniac- I am gonna vote McCain just to piss you all off. As Johnny Depp in Once Upon a Time In Mexico said, "we gotta have balance." :D

[mckracken]

thats a really stupid reason to vote for somebody, Trek.

We're (I'm) (mostly) voting for Barack simply because we're (I'm) fed up with the current administration and we (I) dont want four more years of the same Bush's politics. McCain is cut too close to Bush to establish real change over the next 4 years.

But I'm not one to make false claims against McCain and call him "evil" or "Demonic" or say he's the boogieman or make up false truths about McCains religious beliefs in order to sway somebody to the Obama side, I have been listening to both of them very carefully, I'm even becoming (slowly) a fan of Palin too. Theres good on both sides, Trek (honestly) Both of these guys have some good points too.

Whether they stick to what they say they're going to do is really anybody's guess.

[mckracken]

From Ed Hornick
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/16/warren.forum/)

LAKE FOREST, California (CNN) -- Speaking to a group of evangelical Christians, Sen. Barack Obama said Saturday that his greatest moral failure -- and the country's -- has been selfishness, but his opponent, Sen. John McCain, cited his failed first marriage.

Sen. Barack Obama takes questions from the Rev. Rick Warren on Saturday.

1 of 2 McCain, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, added that the country's greatest shortcoming has been a tendency to not devote itself "to causes greater than ourselves."

"I think after 9/11, my friends, we should have told Americans to join the Peace Corps, expand the military, serve a cause greater than your self-interest," he said.

Obama told the Rev. Rick Warren that "we still don't abide by that basic precept of Matthew: that whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me.

"That basic principle applies to poverty. It applies to racism and sexism; it applies to not thinking about providing ladders of opportunity for people to get into the middle class."

The Saddleback Civil Forum on Presidency was the first time both candidates appeared on stage since they became the presumptive presidential nominees for their parties.

The event was held at Saddleback Church, a mega-church in southern California. The candidates were interviewed by Rick Warren, pastor at the church and author of the best-selling book "The Purpose-Driven Life."

Warren has said he won't endorse either candidate, preferring that his followers make up their own minds.

"I have to tell you up front, both of these guys are my friends. They both care deeply about America. They are both patriots," Warren said in his introduction. "They have very different ideas on how America can be strengthened."

McCain and Obama appeared briefly onstage together, shaking hands and posing with Warren between their one-hour interviews.

Obama acknowledged his drug and alcohol use as a teenager when asked about his personal failure.

"I was so obsessed with me and the reasons I might be dissatisfied, I couldn't focus on other people," he said.

McCain's answer to the question on his own failings was succinct. "My greatest moral failing, and I have been a very imperfect person, is the failure of my first marriage," he said.

When asked what faith in Jesus means to him, McCain replied, "Means I'm saved and forgiven. Our faith encompasses not just America but the world."

McCain got teary-eyed while discussing an experience with a guard during his experience as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. The guard, McCain said, drew a cross in the sand while he was praying on Christmas Day. "For a minute there, we were just two Christians worshipping together."

Neither candidate shied away from a question about which current Supreme Court justice they would not have nominated.

Obama's reply: Clarence Thomas.

Pastor: Not going to play 'gotcha' with McCain, Obama
Where the candidates stand on abortion
Where the candidates stand on stem-cell research
"I don't think he was a strong enough jurist or a legal thinker at the time for that. I profoundly disagree with his interpretation" of the Constitution, he said.

McCain said he would have never nominated Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens.

"This nomination should be based on the criteria on a proven record of strictly adhering to the Constitution and not legislating from the bench," McCain added.

The Arizona senator, McCain said he was "proud" of President Bush for nominating conservative Justices Samuel Alito and John Roberts to the court.

McCain also touched on the conflict in Georgia, saying Russia's behavior in sending troops into breakaway regions "is not acceptable in the 21st century."

"They achieved a revolution. ... Now the Russians are coming in there in an act of aggression. ... We have to not only bring about cease-fire; we have to have honor," he said, adding that Russia must respect Georgia's sovereignty.

Warren pressed Obama on two hot-button issues among social conservatives: abortion and same-sex marriage.

Obama said that although he's pro-choice and supports Roe v. Wade, his goal is to reduce the number of abortions in America.

"On this particular issue, if you believe that life begins at conception ... and you are consistent, then I can't argue with you on that," he said. "What I can do is say, are there ways we can work together to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies?"

He also touched on same-sex marriage. When asked to define marriage, he told Warren, "It's a union between a man and a woman."

"For me as a Christian, it is a sacred union. God's in the mix," he said.

Obama added that he does support same-sex civil unions, saying, "I can afford those civil rights to others even if I don't have ... that view."

McCain was also asked about his views on those issues. He said he would be a pro-life president and would support legislation favoring anti-abortion policy positions.

In terms of same-sex marriage, he supports traditional marriage defined as a union between a man and a woman but would let states decide rather than have a federal mandate.

Obama was asked what he would say if he could say whatever he wanted and face no public repercussions. He answered, "solving big problems are not going to be easy. We are all going to think about how we using things [energy-wise]. If we pretend like everything is free, we are betraying the tradition of America."

The stakes are high for both candidates, who are actively courting so-called values voters and evangelicals, important voting blocs.

A CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll taken July 27-29 showed that among white, born-again or evangelical voters, 67 percent are for McCain, with 24 percent for Obama.

Although it's a strong showing for McCain, he's lagging 11 percentage points behind President Bush in the 2004 election. Exit polls show that Bush beat Sen. John Kerry 78 percent to 21 percent among these voters.

McCain, who was raised an Episcopalian and now identifies himself as Baptist, rarely discusses his faith.

"I'm unashamed and unembarrassed about my deep faith in God. But I do not obviously try to impose my views on others," McCain said in April.

Since then, the senator from Arizona has met with many of the evangelical leaders who did not support his candidacy during the primary season. At a private meeting this summer, dozens of the movement's most prominent figures voted to support his campaign.


Obama's positions in favor of abortion rights and same-sex civil unions also have created tension among evangelical voters otherwise drawn to his candidacy.

But the Democrat, who is Christian, has made it a point to discuss his religion on the trail this year and launched an ambitious outreach effort targeting these voters, including private summits with pastors and a major campaign aimed at young evangelicals.

[tstone]

Which he does propose to do. Its easy to say, i'll cut taxes on you, and im gonna go after the fat cats, we're gonna tax wind fall profits, we're gonna tax corporate greed!!! and the masses will line up, happy as pie thinking this is how we do it, but the long term affect is gonna bite us in the ass, as more and more companys just find it cheaper, and easier to do bussiness overseas. This scares me the most, cause I live in Michigan and ive seen first hand what its like when big bussiness just up and leaves seeking greener pastures elsewhere, neglet can back me on this too. We need to bring companys back to our shores, we need to offer tax deals, and breaks!,


We have the lowest taxes of the first world economic powers. The idea that it is our taxes driving away companies is to buy into their own propaganda.

Companies, especially American companies, should be awarded for investing in America, putting her to work. Those that don't should be penalized.

[neglet]

But I'm not one to make false claims against McCain and call him "evil" or "Demonic" or say he's the boogieman or make up false truths about McCains religious beliefs in order to sway somebody to the Obama side, I have been listening to both of them very carefully, I'm even becoming (slowly) a fan of Palin too. Theres good on both sides, Trek (honestly) Both of these guys have some good points too.

I agree, Phil. Seriously, I think either candidate will be a major improvement after eight years of Bush. As I said before, if McCain had been the Republican candidate in 2000, I would seriously have considered voting for him. (Just imagine how different our world would be if McCain had won in 2000 instead of Bush ... sigh.) I respect him and think he's been a good senator.

I just can't vote for him in 2008 because of how he's turned rightward and pandered to the right wing, especially social conservatives. (At one time, McCain was a kind of Goldwater Republican, but now I don't think you can consider him one.) And I think Obama would make a very good president; I think he can be a uniting force and would certainly help rehabilitate our image abroad.

When you think about it, that's where the president has the most power. He can't raise taxes without Congress, and it's ridiculous to claim that any politican has the power to "create new jobs" or seriously influence the economy. But a president has a lot of power over foreign policy (especially when Congress rolls over and lets him), witness the fiasco Bush has made of Iraq and Afghanistan.

My other concern is the Supreme Court. I think the tilt has turned entirely too conservative, and not strictly constructionist conservative, either--I mean, conservative Republican, giving in presidential power and big business. Witness the recent eminent domain case, (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/scotus.property/) in which the court ruled that municipalities can seize private land and turn it over to developers because it's in the "public interest." You can't tell me a real Conservative thinks that's right. We need real moderates on the bench, ones who aren't in political lockstep with either party. I think we have a better chance of that with Obama.

[whitetemplar78]

We have the lowest taxes of the first world economic powers. The idea that it is our taxes driving away companies is to buy into their own propaganda.

Companies, especially American companies, should be awarded for investing in America, putting her to work. Those that don't should be penalized.

I didn't say that tstone, I was talking about Obama's tax plans, and fears it raised, then I used a example here in my home state about a rewards system that has brought several production studios here, so on this point we both agree. I don't think we have the worst tax system of the major economic powers at all, but I do think its a combination of many factors, wages, cheaper labor abroad, and yes lol less taxes in places like India and other emerging economys that drive companys to seek more profits abroad. As for a reward and punishment system again we agree, if a company in Ohio let say, closes up shop to go to Laos to build its product, and puts hundreds out on the street, guess what baby they get a nice tax bundle slapped on their US holdings, and then a nice tariff slapped on the incoming product. Again this is one of the points that me and Obama don't agree on, he has made it clear that he would look to the corprate and wealthy sectors for ANY tax increases while he eased the burden on the poorer sectors, its not that I don't think Oil companys, and other huge companys can't afford some higher taxes, its more the overall economy that I believe can't handle more business related tax packages from the federal government......and let me say again these are MY own personal worries, not some right wing tax groups statements.

[Outsydr]

Wow, everyone here is an Obamaniac- I am gonna vote McCain just to piss you all off. As Johnny Depp in Once Upon a Time In Mexico said, "we gotta have balance." :D

Giving someone your vote for the purpose of angering bunch of people you don't know...

Your parents must be so incredibly proud. Heck, you keep this up, they might even let you emerge from their basement and intermigle with normal folk from time to time.

[Kaeos]

Funny how what they say comes back to bite them in the ass.

Also funny how I find example after incredible example of McCain contradicting himself and yet not so much double talk and flip flop video of Obama....:headscratch: He's on camera too. He's being recorded every time he speaks....must be the evil liberal press stamping it down...

Apparently he was AGAINST small town mayors and inexperienced governors before he was FOR them....
CzhFDQIgGSg

To be fair, Palin was the mayor of her "po-dunk" town for I believe 13 years....

[Nostromo]

Evening Nuggets. Once again the political mind-bender demands we roll the hard six and hope for the best. So say we all. N :)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/webscout/2008/09/battlestars-ada.html

[TrekSucksHard]

Giving someone your vote for the purpose of angering bunch of people you don't know...

Your parents must be so incredibly proud. Heck, you keep this up, they might even let you emerge from their basement and intermigle with normal folk from time to time.
Nice try but Ive been living in my own house for over a decade now- I got two 100 to 1 bets that McCain is gonna win (this from two idiots who thought that Obama was gonna win by a landslide months ago and everyone else who thinks the race is over) and I love to stick it to the "in-crowd"; no better reason than that. :lol:

[mckracken]

hey Trek, my church, right wing Republicans Pro-McCain, anti-Gay Marriage, pro-Life, Anti-Gay feels they are the "in-crowd" so uh... isn't what you're doing self defeating?

[tstone]

Nice try but Ive been living in my own house for over a decade now- I got two 100 to 1 bets that McCain is gonna win (this from two idiots who thought that Obama was gonna win by a landslide months ago and everyone else who thinks the race is over) and I love to stick it to the "in-crowd"; no better reason than that. :lol:

The future of the country at stake, and your first priority is "sticking it" to people on the internet.

You are a useless tool.

[TrekSucksHard]

Yep, I like to stick it to "holier than thou" nitwits like you. :smirk:

Future of the country at stake, yeah right- libs like you think the world will end the moment McCain gets elected and that is plain silly.

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D

[Kaeos]

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D

Because if McCain was worthy of being elected to this office, then he would have been elected his last time around. A loser is a loser and he needs to move on to an old folks home to live out his apparent dreams of POW glory.

Hows that.

[kah]

Wow.

That was weak, K.

[Bill_the_Pony]

Yep, I like to stick it to "holier than thou" nitwits like you. :smirk:

Future of the country at stake, yeah right- libs like you think the world will end the moment McCain gets elected and that is plain silly.

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D


Bitch, please. Holier than thou has been your M.O. from day one.

[Kaeos]

That was weak, K.

:Tongue: He's an old fart who won't shut up about being a POW. Wow. Amazing. By McCain's logic MY FATHER could be President.

My dad served 3 tours in Vietnam, he saw front line action in the jungle and he was ALSO on board the USS Forrestal along with MCCain the day when it went up in flames - look it up. Though instead of being a hot shot fighter pilot like McCain sitting in his aircraft, my dad was one of the brave infintrymen who were yanking bombs off of the fighter wings and rolling them into the ocean so they wouldn't explode. Many of which did, BTW as the men were rolling them.

My Dad swam around for 3 hours in the ocean pulling injured men out of the water and into boats. My Dad saved more than 100 men that day. McCain sat in his fucking cockpit waiting for orders. So should my Dad be President? No because the war left him with PTSD and flashbacks.

I'm sick and fucking tired of this "I'm a War Hero" bullshit that McCain is trying to stand on. He was POOR fighter pilot at best, he crashed 3 FUCKING PLANES in his service career - look it up. And I'm sorry but a guy who sat in a hole for 5 years cannot have retained all his mental and emotional faculties.

So now this tired old codger is apparently passing himself off as the "reformer" and the "maverick". Give me a break. He's been a part of the BROKEN system for 22 years!!!! If McCain all the sudden has all the answers to our problems then why has he been a part of the machine that's been causing the problems for so long? NOW he's going to fix things?

All of the Obama haters that regurgitate this nonsense about "I don't know what Obama beleives in" "He's an empty suit" "He's all talk"

LOOK AT JOHN MCCAIN!!! He's a babbling old fool who can barely read the speeches OTHER people write for him.

And once again - remember when you throw your lot in with him, you are voting for his VP pick, who stands a VERY good chance of succeeding him if he dies in office - at 71 YEARS OLD. A VP candiate - who is clearly an extremist right wing neo con - who has participated in a anti-american seperatist party in Alaska - who tried to BAN certain books in libraries - who tried to force religious creationism into SCIENCE classes in schools.

A vote for McCain is a vote for a woman who said to an interviewer "Someone will have to tell me what the Vice President does all day" This person will have the nucelar codes?

Give me a break.

Is that better Kah?:poke:

[Intelligent_Design]

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D


Eventhough I'm behind Obama thats not set in stone. In my own opinion, people that Set their vote and not waiver before election day are doing this country a disservice. You aren't making these candidates work. Your vote maybe easy to get, but mine isn't.

[Outsydr]

Yep, I like to stick it to "holier than thou" nitwits like you. :smirk:

Future of the country at stake, yeah right- libs like you think the world will end the moment McCain gets elected and that is plain silly.

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D

As someone who alleges that they've been making "big-boy" choices for 10 years, you should know by now that you vote FOR someone, not against someone, and (more importantly) you don't throw something as prescious as your right to vote away on a juvenile wager. If you don't like McCain enough to have your own reasons, then stay the fuck home. If you can't agree with how important this election is, then stay the fuck home! If you have nothing else to contribute to this thread than the same mindless drivel you normally pollute these boards with, then go back to the nipple-head section you escaped from... and, come November, STAY the FUCK HOME!!

[Outsydr]

:Tongue: He's an old fart who won't shut up about being a POW. Wow. Amazing. By McCain's logic MY FATHER could be President.

My dad served 3 tours in Vietnam, he saw front line action in the jungle and he was ALSO on board the USS Forrestal along with MCCain the day when it went up in flames - look it up. Though instead of being a hot shot fighter pilot like McCain sitting in his aircraft, my dad was one of the brave infintrymen who were yanking bombs off of the fighter wings and rolling them into the ocean so they wouldn't explode. Many of which did, BTW as the men were rolling them.

My Dad swam around for 3 hours in the ocean pulling injured men out of the water and into boats. My Dad saved more than 100 men that day. McCain sat in his fucking cockpit waiting for orders. So should my Dad be President? No because the war left him with PTSD and flashbacks.

I'm sick and fucking tired of this "I'm a War Hero" bullshit that McCain is trying to stand on. He was POOR fighter pilot at best, he crashed 3 FUCKING PLANES in his service career - look it up. And I'm sorry but a guy who sat in a hole for 5 years cannot have retained all his mental and emotional faculties.

So now this tired old codger is apparently passing himself off as the "reformer" and the "maverick". Give me a break. He's been a part of the BROKEN system for 22 years!!!! If McCain all the sudden has all the answers to our problems then why has he been a part of the machine that's been causing the problems for so long? NOW he's going to fix things?

All of the Obama haters that regurgitate this nonsense about "I don't know what Obama beleives in" "He's an empty suit" "He's all talk"

LOOK AT JOHN MCCAIN!!! He's a babbling old fool who can barely read the speeches OTHER people write for him.

And once again - remember when you throw your lot in with him, you are voting for his VP pick, who stands a VERY good chance of succeeding him if he dies in office - at 71 YEARS OLD. A VP candiate - who is clearly an extremist right wing neo con - who has participated in a anti-american seperatist party in Alaska - who tried to BAN certain books in libraries - who tried to force religious creationism into SCIENCE classes in schools.

A vote for McCain is a vote for a woman who said to an interviewer "Someone will have to tell me what the Vice President does all day" This person will have the nucelar codes?

Give me a break.

Is that better Kah?:poke:

Big D, if I'd know that Obama's name would be on my ballot, your dad would have my write in vote! Making that kind of sacrifice for the country is a sign of greatness beyond mere words. You tell your dad that he has my gratitude.

[kah]

Ditto Outy. Your dad did an awesome thing for our country.

However, I'm not cool with your personal attacks. Calling McCain a loser and mocking his service to this country is not going to win me to your side. Whether he was good at what he did, or pathetic, the fact is the guy fought for our country and ended up a POW for 5 years. Respect that.

Oh, and I'm registering a protest vote. I'm writing in Ron Paul. :Tongue:

[mckracken]

Yep, I like to stick it to "holier than thou" nitwits like you. :smirk:
i happen to agree with the others on this board that with all thats at stake with this election, you prefer to stick it to "Holier than thou" nitwits such as us, rather than make a well researched and informed decision on one of the biggest elections to date.

Future of the country at stake, yeah right- libs like you think the world will end the moment McCain gets elected and that is plain silly.


No, the world wont end abruptly when McCain takes office, however the path that this country has BEEN ON FOR THE PAST EIGHT YEARS will continue foe another FOUR MORE YEARS!

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D

you shall listen? I cry foul. WE ALL ARE GIVING YOU COMPELLING REASONS TO NOT VOTE MCCAIN and you laugh in our faces and tell us we're nitwits.:confused: :mad:

Its very interesting and compelling that only NOW is McCain preaching a message of CHANGE this country so desperately needs... uh huh... Riiiiiight! He was probably thinking the exact same thing when he himself was considering SWITCHING DEMOCRATIC PARTIES and running under the banner of a (nitwit) Democrat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NotAFan]

TrekSucksHard has conviced me I'm gonna vote for McCain just to stick it to the man! :p Plus you can't flog the naughty weasel to Biden! Palin is prime flog the naughty weasel material....at least as politicians go!

[TrekSucksHard]

TrekSucksHard has conviced me I'm gonna vote for McCain just to stick it to the man! :p

Yay, my plan is working! :D

Now to pool all the reasons you guys gave me for not voting McCain:

1) He's old
- Old equals experience, he has more than Obama :wink:
2) He keeps saying he's a war hero
- I don't see anything wrong with that :ohwell:
3) He's a loser
- Uhh, riiight; what if he wins? :smirk:
4) McCain = 4 more years of W
- Foreign policy wise he is similar to W but domestically he is his own
5) Matt Damon told me so
- Maaat Daamoon!

This is it? This is the best you guys can come up with? :lol:

[Space Tycoon]

However, if anyone has a compelling reason for me not to vote McCain then I shall listen. :D

I used to be a huge McCain fan. I still have admiration for the man. But many of his policies are wrong-- front and centre his foreign policy.

He believes that US troops should stay in Iraq for decades to come.

He supports an "Afghan surge," which will squander American lives and treasure in yet another ill-advised venture.

He has casually joked about bombing Iran, a sovereign nation that does not want war with America, and has never attacked the US.

He has recently been fear-mongering about Russia, raising the spectre of war with a nuclear-armed superpower.



Age is no issue with me. It ocurred to me that the last two presidents were both relatively young, yet both were disappointing in their own way. Maybe it's time for someone older and wiser to take charge. Sadly, McCain isn't the one this time around.






.

[Space Tycoon]

Mind you, many similar accusations could be made about Barack Obama at this point, except for Iraq of course.

Looks like you're gonna get war no matter who you vote for this time around... :ohwell:






.

[mckracken]

Mind you, many similar accusations could be made about Barack Obama at this point, except for Iraq of course.

Looks like you're gonna get war no matter who you vote for this time around... :ohwell:

well look at this strategy, War with Iraq actually helped W.Bush get re-elected to his second term! :headscratch:

War needs justification (BUSH = none), Provocation (Bush = None) and an exit strategy (Bush = none)

Exit strategy that doesnt mean "leave it up to the next President to figure out our exit strategy" and McCain seems to feel this is a good plan, another 4 years in Iraq (first term) or 8 years in Iraq and Afganistan (first and second term)... eventually the people will forget about their sons and daughters who are fighting and dying for our freedom while the man who's initially responsible remains at large and a viable threat to our security nearly eight years later.

Do you really think McCain will actually search for, find and capture Bin Laden? Of course not!!

[sickness]

Compared to Biden, Palin is an angel- this is the guy who plagiarized JFK in his failed presidential run and is the ultimate insider in Washington and Obama claims they are for change? Give me a break! The American public has finally seen that Obama is full of hot air and Palin is his nemesis since they are both the same- both celebrities.

I may not like McCain on many issues but at least he doesn't flip-flop it like Nobama does just to get votes and for that he gets my respect. Nobama is a demagouge.

Wanna go back to 1987 on Biden? How about we bring up everyone's skeletons in the closet from the late 80's. You see, McCain was involved in this little thing known as the S&L Scandal and was so deep in it that he was one of the illustrious "Keating Five."

This fucker claims the high ground on breaking the Washington mold and he has lobbyists running the campaign of a KEY player from the last banking crisis.... riiiiiiight.

[TrekSucksHard]

well look at this strategy, War with Iraq actually helped W.Bush get re-elected to his second term! :headscratch:

War needs justification (BUSH = none), Provocation (Bush = None) and an exit strategy (Bush = none)

Exit strategy that doesnt mean "leave it up to the next President to figure out our exit strategy" and McCain seems to feel this is a good plan, another 4 years in Iraq (first term) or 8 years in Iraq and Afganistan (first and second term)... eventually the people will forget about their sons and daughters who are fighting and dying for our freedom while the man who's initially responsible remains at large and a viable threat to our security nearly eight years later.

Do you really think McCain will actually search for, find and capture Bin Laden? Of course not!!

What makes you think McCain won't do that? The tribal areas of Pakistan is a whole shitload of problems for anybody including Obama- you think Bin Laden is gonna give up the moment Obama gets elected? You're dreaming.

You guys can hate W till kingdom come but there hasn't been another attack on US soil since 9/11 and it appears that the surge in Iraq is working and if it keeps going we may be out of there in 4-5 years anyway- you people are so blinded by the negativity of the left that you are willing to take any alternative- even an unproven candidate who is full of himself.

[TrekSucksHard]

Wanna go back to 1987 on Biden? How about we bring up everyone's skeletons in the closet from the late 80's. You see, McCain was involved in this little thing known as the S&L Scandal and was so deep in it that he was one of the illustrious "Keating Five."

This fucker claims the high ground on breaking the Washington mold and he has lobbyists running the campaign of a KEY player from the last banking crisis.... riiiiiiight.
Wow, comparing Biden to McCain (instead of Palin, which was the original argument)- what a cop out.

Don't forget Biden's son was a lobbyist just a few days ago- talk about the ultimate insider from a pair that proposes "change"- yeah riiiiight. :lol:

http://i36.tinypic.com/mvkt9s.jpg

[mckracken]

There have been plenty of terrorist attacks in the last eight years, London, Paris, Israel, Germany, (OUR ALLIES) the US Embassy in Africa got attacked also, not to mention direct threats against the US naval fleet made by IRAN when they charged one of our aircraft carriers with a black speedboat, then later denied that it ever happened.:headscratch:

I'm glad you take the "I'm safe and fuck the rest of the world's safety" attitude, Trek... no, actually I'm not.

and by the way Trek, what kind of a troop surge lasts for 4 to 5 years anyway?:headscratch:

[mckracken]

Trek, dont you think its actually time the Iraqi people stepped up to the plate and learned to fucking defend their own asses? I know I do.

why are Americans dying for a third world shithole country that wont even step up to help themselves? We've all seen the idiots that call themselves the "Iraqi Military" and "police force", its pitiful. We should just fucking leave and let them figure out how to defend themselves instead of babysitting their asses for 8 to 12 years!!!

[TrekSucksHard]

I never said "fuck the rest of the world", now youre just going all lefty again.

And how are those other attacks W's fault? Do you think they will stop attacking us once Obama gets elected? Riiight...

http://i35.tinypic.com/15s4huo.jpg

[tstone]

Oh, the above poster, posted by a DITTOHEAD...right wingers really suck at spotting this irony thing...

:D

[TrekSucksHard]

The irony is that you like to vote for a guy who talks about nothing- just like the reviews you write here. :lol:

[Kaeos]

The irony is that you like to vote for a guy who talks about nothing- just like the reviews you write here. :lol:

Well there it is. Took about a month but inevitably someone has to take the low road to score points.

Many of us here were debating the merits of the candidates. Not each other.

What exactly does a movie review have to do with a political debate?

Dude you came into this conversation with a stated purpose to "piss you guys off" yet within 3 days you've taken the low road and attacked another poster personally? On something that has nothing to do with the conversation?

Bravo. There's a lovely little board called excelsiornews.com where they welcome posters of your caliber. Say hello to Jack and Quasar.
Very

[Outsydr]

What exactly does a movie review have to do with a political debate?

Nothing at all. It's a flame war, and I'm not getting in it. I recommend that no one else bothers with it, either. Ignore him.

[tstone]

The irony is that you like to vote for a guy who talks about nothing- just like the reviews you write here. :lol:

Beats voting for someone because some radio blowhard told me to.

And since we are WAY OFF TOPIC, I'm throwing down the gauntlet. If our fellow readers are willing to pick a movie for the both of us to watch and review, each one of us can write a review of it and let THEM pick who writes the better reviews. Loser accepts banning from the board for a time yet to be determined.

I hear lots of shit talking. Can you back it up?

PS. Thanks, Kaos, but I think this guy knows he's scum. And I don't think he's going to have the huevos to step up to this challenge, either.

[Bill_the_Pony]

Tstone, you don't have to prove a thing to anyone. You and many others have proved their character here time and again and back up what you say by not hiding behind some anonymous username like the typical high post count trolls we've seen over the years. Anything of value or substance that they might actually have to say is pretty much null and voided by their pretension, lack of wit, or civility. It doesn't matter what side of the fence they're on.

[tstone]

No, I've nothing to prove, of course. But I've every confidence that the "dittohead" ain't nearly as brassy as he wants folks here to think he is.

Here's his chance to prove it.

Or not.

:popcorn:

[Space Tycoon]

I think you're being a little unfair here. The Iraqis had a functioning army and security forces up until March 2003. One of the stupidest things the US did was to dismantle the Iraqi armed forces and try to create a new one from scratch, with no solid plan as to how to do so.

This is a country that over the last 30 years has seen it's civil society totally ripped apart by 5 years of war, 12 years of sanctions, another 2 wars costing millions of lives, devastated infrastructure, poisoned water, millions upon millions of refugees who have just left... and now we expect them to just pick up and carry on like nothing happened? Not as easy as it sounds.

I'm sorry, but I get a little impatient with this whole, "why can't the Iraqis clean up their own mess" routine I keep hearing from various sources.

Trek, dont you think its actually time the Iraqi people stepped up to the plate and learned to fucking defend their own asses? I know I do.

why are Americans dying for a third world shithole country that wont even step up to help themselves? We've all seen the idiots that call themselves the "Iraqi Military" and "police force", its pitiful. We should just fucking leave and let them figure out how to defend themselves instead of babysitting their asses for 8 to 12 years!!!

[sickness]

But since they're now asking us to be out on their terms instead of ours, I say we do it. If we're so concerned about the legitimacy and stability of the Iraqi government, there's nothing better that we can do than respect their wishes and get the hell out. How can the people respect their government if their government is not in control of their sovereignty? We only create a worse situation by leaving on our own judgements and timelines.

[sickness]

Wow, comparing Biden to McCain (instead of Palin, which was the original argument)- what a cop out.

Don't forget Biden's son was a lobbyist just a few days ago- talk about the ultimate insider from a pair that proposes "change"- yeah riiiiight. :lol:

http://i36.tinypic.com/mvkt9s.jpg

Do you somehow think McCain and Palin are running on separate tickets or that only his experience and her lack of taint from the S&L scandal (although she's got plenty of other signs of corruption) should be considered? Give me a break.

As for Biden's son, you're really going to go there? You're really going t hold a family relation against Biden/Obama? Like they say, you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family. Besides, he had no official capacity with the campaign. A paid federal lobbyist has no paid or even official capacity with the Obama/Biden campaign. That's something McCain/Palin can't say.

By the way, that Superman I'm Sorry pick is frickin' hilarious. :lol:

[Space Tycoon]

Oh I agree with leaving. I just get tired of this ragging on the Iraqi people as if they were to blame for the serial catastrophes to befall their country.






.

[rappites]

SNL - Palin and Clinton come together (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/palin-hillary-open/656281/)


Good Stuff

[sickness]

True that. And even they've realized that and turned the tide in this war (hint to those who are blind: the turnaround had NOTHING to do with the surge). Why can't we?

[mckracken]

I think you're being a little unfair here. The Iraqis had a functioning army and security forces up until March 2003.
I dunno ST, I was shocked at watching them buckle under the pressure so quickly at the onslaught of the FIRST Iraq war after they invaded Kuwait. I wouldnt call what I saw "functional". Now granted I hadnt been paying to much attention to Iraq's Military prior to the first Desert Storm so I cant judge, but when we showed up, i remember they gave up and surrendered quite quickly... not a functional army then.


One of the stupidest things the US did was to dismantle the Iraqi armed forces and try to create a new one from scratch, with no solid plan as to how to do so.

I disagree with that ST, the Iraq Armed Forces that didnt surrender and continued to threaten their own troops with death if they refused to fight were bigtime Saddam loyalists. Keeping them in place over their own troops would have been a huge mistake for our guys, not one of the "stupidest things". This actually saved a lot of US troop lives, even though the Iraq's that hated Saddam and wanted to be a part o the new military cant fight worth a freakin shit.

The reason we dismantled their army and (tried to) create a new one was to make damn sure that the people in charge of the Iraq Troops werent loyal to Saddam Hussien.

This strategy of rebuilding an army dedcated to wiping out the Saddam loyalists rarely works but you do have to dismantle their army first- else they'll kill you while you sleep.

[sickness]

And yet we've given up the de-Baathification of the government and allowed Saddam loyalists back into the military at ranks as high as captain (perhaps farther up; it's been a while since I checked).

[whitetemplar78]

Wanna go back to 1987 on Biden? How about we bring up everyone's skeletons in the closet from the late 80's. You see, McCain was involved in this little thing known as the S&L Scandal and was so deep in it that he was one of the illustrious "Keating Five."

This fucker claims the high ground on breaking the Washington mold and he has lobbyists running the campaign of a KEY player from the last banking crisis.... riiiiiiight.

He was cleared on all charges in this affair, so bringing up this makes no sense, except to scream coverup I guess, but for whatever reason he was cleared, the fact is....he was found innocent of wrong doings in this, and outside of this there really isn't anything horrible on McCain to point out. As for Palin, and claiming she's corrupt???....How so?...The Tropper firing is UNDER review, but no formal charges have been brought forth, with no charges then how can you claim corruption?? If she isss found guilty of wrong doing in this case, then you have a point, and I'll stand by your side on this, but as of right now, she does have the right of being innocent till proven guilty, its a right we all share in this country, don't forget.

Trek........man, you are so not helping the cause, and just walking away right now would be a good idea, theres no reason to get personal on here, Ive been fighting this fight of being a small voice of moderate right, without any need to use name calling, or personal attacks as a tactic at any time, and you using both, just drowns out any good you might be attempting here. Kaeos, tstone, Outsydr, kah, rapp, mckracken, and sickness are not nitwits, or bad people at all, all of them are good, pretty smart people that are guilty of nothing, other then having another point of view on this matter, does this make me think any less of any of them??...hell no, not at all, if anything many of the points they've brought up in a debatable manner have caused me to think more, and think harder to match their points. If any of the convo's start to get hot under the collar, which does happen, then I try to point out when someone start to cross the line a bit, but over all no one has really been rude, or mean to me....lol well maybe one or two slip ups, but in a good debate who's passion doesn't get up and going??? So if your gonna continue to be pro McCain on here, then please just be civil, not too hard really. I do see every once and awhile you start to make some vaild points then BAM you get smart ass, and no matter how right you may be...that makes you lose the battle from the start buddy.

[Outsydr]

He was cleared on all charges in this affair, so bringing up this makes no sense, except to scream coverup I guess, but for whatever reason he was cleared, the fact is....he was found innocent of wrong doings in this, and outside of this there really isn't anything horrible on McCain to point out. As for Palin, and claiming she's corrupt???....How so?...The Tropper firing is UNDER review, but no formal charges have been brought forth, with no charges then how can you claim corruption?? If she isss found guilty of wrong doing in this case, then you have a point, and I'll stand by your side on this, but as of right now, she does have the right of being innocent till proven guilty, its a right we all share in this country, don't forget.

Well, proving wrongdoing in this case has been tough since Mrs. Palin's administration has placed what amounts to a gag order on staff not to assist investigators. I'm guessing their will be some easing up on these gags now that Mr. Palin and some staff members have been subpeonaed, but there is little change that the full truth will come to light before the election.

[Intelligent_Design]

I think we don't have to get out of Iraq totally and still quell the american publics' discontent. We need to make another appeal to the UN for help. Bush Can't do it. McCain can't do it. I bet most of the UN countries see Bush = McCain. So if we were to pull this off, Obama is the Guy. I have no hard facts on these, they are just my Opinions. I honestly think that Obama can make headway with the UN were as I don't think McCain could.

[Gentlemen Death]

I think we don't have to get out of Iraq totally and still quell the american publics' discontent. We need to make another appeal to the UN for help. Bush Can't do it. McCain can't do it. I bet most of the UN countries see Bush = McCain. So if we were to pull this off, Obama is the Guy. I have no hard facts on these, they are just my Opinions. I honestly think that Obama can make headway with the UN were as I don't think McCain could.

I can see Santa Claus doing more then Obama....:popcorn:

[Intelligent_Design]

I can see Santa Claus doing more then Obama....:popcorn:

Well ok:headscratch: Vote for Santa Claus :rolleyes:

[NotAFan]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh284/emtstone801/GotMilf.jpg

[Senormac]

Awwwww.....CRAP! McCain is ahead!........as I expect....right through to the finish.....:popcorn:

[Intelligent_Design]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh284/emtstone801/GotMilf.jpg


2 things wrong with that pic.

1)It should read. Got VPILF?

2) No Milk Mustaches. Which I would be happy to provide.

[TrekSucksHard]

I think we don't have to get out of Iraq totally and still quell the american publics' discontent. We need to make another appeal to the UN for help. Bush Can't do it. McCain can't do it. I bet most of the UN countries see Bush = McCain. So if we were to pull this off, Obama is the Guy. I have no hard facts on these, they are just my Opinions. I honestly think that Obama can make headway with the UN were as I don't think McCain could.

The UN? Please tell me youre kidding. The UN cannot and will not get us out of this mess that is Iraq. Fighting an insurgency takes time and patience and even Obama has finally admitted that the surge is working. But of course there is still a lot of work to be done there and if we pull out right away we will lose whatever gains we got there. My personal view is that they split the country up into three little ones but thats not gonna happen so we are just gonna have to keep building up their military until they are strong enough to stand up on their own- then we leave.

Trek........man, you are so not helping the cause, and just walking away right now would be a good idea, theres no reason to get personal on here, Ive been fighting this fight of being a small voice of moderate right, without any need to use name calling, or personal attacks as a tactic at any time, and you using both, just drowns out any good you might be attempting here.
If you read the start of this thread all the way to here you will see that it wasn't me who started the personal thing- but I won't get pushed around by their attacks and will always be fighting back and winning- its my nature. :D

[Space Tycoon]

I dunno ST, I was shocked at watching them buckle under the pressure so quickly at the onslaught of the FIRST Iraq war after they invaded Kuwait. I wouldnt call what I saw "functional".

Well they were under constant heavy aerial and ground assault from the world's most powerful and technologically advanced militaries. I didn't say that they were a magnificent fighting force compared with that of first world armies. They functioned as the only thing keeping a post-colonial artifice called "Iraq" glued together.




I disagree with that ST, the Iraq Armed Forces that didnt surrender and continued to threaten their own troops with death if they refused to fight were bigtime Saddam loyalists. Keeping them in place over their own troops would have been a huge mistake for our guys, not one of the "stupidest things". This actually saved a lot of US troop lives...

If you're going to go to war, you have to accept casualties. It comes with the territory. This represents a major flaw in American thinking about warfare, one which Asian countries generally do not share. Of course, if the coalition had gone in with a large enough force, say 400,000, instead of the paltry 120, 000 approved by Rummy, casualties would have been less of an issue.

The reason we dismantled their army and (tried to) create a new one was to make damn sure that the people in charge of the Iraq Troops werent loyal to Saddam Hussien.

So you do away with the only force capable of maintaining order, in the hopes of eventually putting together a new one? Not much of a plan. Do away with most of the top brass, keep the rank-and-file in place.






.

[NotAFan]

YOU'RE NEXT VP LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk202/dthurma1/palin.gif


WOOOHOOO! YEAH!

[tstone]

If you read the start of this thread all the way to here you will see that it wasn't me who started the personal thing- but I won't get pushed around by their attacks and will always be fighting back and winning- its my nature. :D

Oh, so you did NOT robotically refer to Obama as The Messiah, just like Rush does?

As for "winning", I notice you ain't taking up my challenge.

Loser.

:D


The UN cannot and will not get us out of this mess that is Iraq. Fighting an insurgency takes time and patience and even Obama has finally admitted that the surge is working.


Saying the surge is "working", that is, has brought down the violence rate, is not saying that Iraq is stable and and any closer to independence.

Counter-insurgencies usually fail. Can you tell me why?

[TrekSucksHard]

Pick a neutral site without your asskissing comrades and I'll take you down anytime, retard. :lol:

Once again- your Messiah flip flopped and now admits the surge is working- right before he was shooting it down, what do you have to say now you lib moron? :D

[tstone]

Once again- your Messiah flip flopped and now admits the surge is working- right before he was shooting it down, what do you have to say now you lib moron?


"Working", meaning, the violence has lessened. Don't imply any more meaning than there is, douchebag.

"Messiah". God, you are such a robot.

Ah..neutral site...look, if you are too big a coward that you aren't confident in your skills here, just say so. Surely you aren't such an obnoxious, vile fucktard that you have no friends here, are you?

:D

Your chance to be a billy badass here, to humiliate me in front of all and sundry, and your defense..."I have no friends".

Pathetic.

Tstone...meet "NO STONES". Goes by the name "SUX".

"Yes, he does indeed."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bill_the_Pony]

Pick a neutral site without your asskissing comrades and I'll take you down anytime, retard. :lol:

Once again- your Messiah flip flopped and now admits the surge is working- right before he was shooting it down, what do you have to say now you lib moron? :D


Words of a man swimming in his own bile. :rolleyes:

[Jakester]

Man, TSH. In a debate such as what should be going on, it's all about facts, and not about "friends." So, lay down the facts to support your argument, and let them speak for themselves.

Although I do admit that the name-calling is a bit entertaining. I'm currently reading this thread and eating popcorn. I can, on occasion, do two things at once.

[Space Tycoon]

Once again- your Messiah flip flopped and now admits the surge is working

I keep hearing about how "the surge is working." It's like a mantra. Say it often enough and you start to believe it.

No-one likes to be told that the Sunnis and Shi'ites have been so busy cleansing (i.e., murdering) each other that actions against coalition forces have lessened.





.

[neglet]

Don't make me come in here, boys. Stop the namecalling, or we will have to give you a time out.

[NotAFan]

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff119/alohablondie/vpilf.jpg

[TrekSucksHard]

Ah..neutral site...look, if you are too big a coward that you aren't confident in your skills here, just say so. Surely you aren't such an obnoxious, vile fucktard that you have no friends here, are you?


I could care less about your "friends" in here, asshole- I didn't go into this site to make friends. I don't suck cock like you just to get your egoshit name out there. My skills definitely pwn you so if you really are man enough (I doubt you are even a man) you'd do it in a neutral site- but I know you won't. :lol:

So you are a coward without your "friends" to back you up.

PWNED.

[mckracken]

thats really low Trek...i mean, even for you.:mad:

[tstone]

I could care less about your "friends" in here, asshole- I didn't go into this site to make friends. I don't suck cock like you...

You are a class act. I guess that's what they are teaching in rightwinger school nowadays. You french your mother with that mouth?

If you were not so worried about "friends", or the lack thereof, you would quit your dancing and posturing, let the adored gathered pick the film, and we would get to writing.

"I DEMAND A NEUTRAL SITE!"

But you are afraid.

OWNED.

:popcorn:

BTW, if the next post isn't something along the lines of, "Ok, let's get on with it" and we don't get started picking a movie and writing, all your posturing will be what it is, the mewling defensive squeals of a coward who is even to cowardly to come to terms with his own cowardice.

This is not about any other site, this is about THIS SITE, and your supposed confidence about how superior your reviews are, and that everyone here can see that.

Talk is cheap. Time to stop talking, and get down to brass tacks.

Or not.

I'm waiting.

[TrekSucksHard]

LOL- for you to even challenge me to this just adds proof that you are a insecure loser who can only be appreciated by a dozen members of this site when you write your own stupid name on your silly reviews.

Tell you what- send your reviews to a professional journalist and have him/her critique it and they will tell you just what I've been saying all along: YOU SUCK!!! :lol:

[TrekSucksHard]

thats really low Trek...i mean, even for you.:mad:
Tell that to the asshole (who goes by the name of tstone) who started this fight...

[tstone]

LOL- for you to even challenge me to this just adds proof that you are a insecure loser who can only be appreciated by a dozen members of this site when you write your own stupid name on your silly reviews.



You are the one who took the shot at the movie reviews, not me. It seems you are the insecure loser when you won't even put up a review against mine, of all the weak excuses, because you don't have friends here.

:lol:

And it goes to show the true falsity of the ability of some hardcore rightwingers, when they go on about "personal responsibility", when it comes time to claim any, there's no one home.

"You STARTED THIS...nevermind about the obnoxious, combative tone of my 'debate', where I echoed an obnoxious, combative radio talk show host. I know it is kind of sad, aping the language of a right wing blowhard, rather than come up with my own, but.."

"You're an INSECURE LOSER, nevermind I'm the first one who even brought up movie reviews..."

Try again.

No personal responsibility.

Hypocrite.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

And still, no review.

Coward.

[Kaeos]

Oh, the above poster, posted by a DITTOHEAD...right wingers really suck at spotting this irony thing.

The irony is that you like to vote for a guy who talks about nothing- just like the reviews you write here. :lol:

Face it Trek. You started it dude. It didn't get personal with anyone here until you made it personal. Attacking someone's politics is a whole hell of a lot different than attacking them directly about something completely unrelated.

[Jakester]

Damn, TSH, whenever you're on the losing end of an argument, you go all personal attack-y and then claim "victory." What's up with that? I mean, even your personal attacks blow. Are you taking lessons from O'Reilly?

[neglet]

Dammit, you made me get up offa my sleeping couch! I don't care who started it, I'm finishing it.

Since this thread isn't dealing with the subject any more, I'm locking it. Start another thread where you can behave yourselves.