How come our media doesn't even come close to reporting this?

[Senormac]

Yea, I guess they can't be everywhere at once.....but damn.....they sure seem to have an agenda.....and it isn't PRO U.S.A. It isn't PRO western society. It isn't PRO judeo/ christian ideology. So what the hell is it? Cuz they are totally dropping the ball with whats going on in the world.....at least according to this site.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

And among the articles on that site is this one........a catalog of all the Islamic murders that have been documented ....on a day by day basis.....

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

I find these statistics VERY troubling.....and in light of the fact....YES the fact....that MOST of the media is PRO Democrat....and PRO Liberal......I have to wonder who what and where the enemy actually is. What ever the media is for.......gives me great concern to question that there is something very destructive about being "FOR" anything.....that "They" are for!!!

[TrixieB]

Gee... I can't possibly imagine why the media (even fair and balanced Fox News) isn't reporting on a site that claims that ALL followers of Islam are hate-mongers and terrorists. What IS up with that?

I have a serious question for you, Senor. I do respect your faith and convictions and I am not trying to slam you (well, except for the sarcasm of the 1st paragraph). Do you actually know any Muslim people? If you do, are you afraid of them?

I do know some Muslims. My next door neighbors are Muslim. They are very nice people, friendly and helpful. My daughter had a close friend in elementary school was Muslim (they moved away). Her family was wonderful... always involved in events at the school, among the first to volunteer.

This website insinuates that we should be afraid of ALL followers if Islam, even the children. Any reporting on this would be perpetuating the stereotypes that you seem to have latched on to and promoting the unnecessary fears that you seem to have. I can't see how any of that would be productive at all.

[Bill_the_Pony]

Maybe we're too busy covering the atrocities taking place HERE instead.

[Senormac]

I do know some Muslims. My next door neighbors are Muslim. They are very nice people, friendly and helpful. My daughter had a close friend in elementary school was Muslim (they moved away). Her family was wonderful... always involved in events at the school, among the first to volunteer.

Trixie.....you have completely and totally put on your blinders and ignored the facts here.....as well as changed the subject....which is what many people do when something unpleasant is presented to them. I am not discussing your neighbors (who are of course going to be model citizens cuz they are living in a foreign country and don't want to draw any negative attention to themselves or their fellow Muslims).....I am bringing to light the fact that this world we live in is full of people who have gone out from the "Muslim Hornet Hive" to various parts of the world and committed horrendous acts of murder towards a multitude of people.

If you wanna think that Muslims are gentle, kind, peace loving individuals.....and there is nothing wrong with anything that they believe......then you did not read very much of this web sites information. This is not FoX news!!.....this is independent information gathering by concerned individuals. And when you get your throat slit cuz your face is exposed in public.......maybe not by your neighbors.....but by some idiot Muslim.....who wants to "kill the infidels".......then I won't be able to help you. It will be too late. I am trying to help you now.....by warning you of the multitude of examples of Muslim violence going on around the world.....on a day by day basis.

Ignore it if you wish........thats not my concern.

[TrixieB]

Actually, they are NOT living in a foreign country. They are American born. They are simply a different religion, not from a different country. In fact, not all people from the Middle East are Muslim.

This website is not "independent" information. This website was put together to get exactly the kindof reaction that they got from you. They wanted to scare you. It worked.

I don't deal with generalities. I deal with people.

[Senormac]

Well......are those people really dead .....or not?????

[TrixieB]

So, Muslim extremists are the only ones to ever kill in the name of their religion? Study the history of your own religion.

And just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you!!!!!! Here come the boogie-men!!!

[Senormac]

Changing the subject again?? Yea, I know its hard to face the truth......

Remember this story......

http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2008/05/muslim-threats.html

A freakin Muslim student in AMERICA threatened to KILL the service dog of a handicapped student cuz it was a dog !!! Its freakin trained to help and protect the guy when he has a seizure.....and the G.D. Muslim threatened to KILL it !! The student with the dog left the school....and the FREAKIN MUSLIM got to stay!! Are you kidding?!! This is what YOUR kind of thinking permits Trixie......If you ask me....that Muslim student should have been deported !!! But NOOOOOOO.....Its all about the $$$$$ and being PC.
Don't allow yourself to fall in line with the PC bullsh*t that is sweeping across the nation Trix......Sometimes you just can't accept everybody and all behavior. You need to make a stand.

[Space Tycoon]

This is what YOUR kind of thinking permits Trixie......If you ask me....that Muslim student should have been deported !!!

So... tolerant people like Trixie are responsible for the intolerance of some Muslims? How does that happen?

Sometimes you just can't accept everybody and all behavior. You need to make a stand.

Indeed. We must take a stand against all religious intolerance and fundamentalism. Those who would use their religious beliefs to justify violence and war.

Even the ones who wear suits and ties and run for office. :smirk:






.

[Senormac]

You still skirted the issue of commenting on this "Dog" issue spacey.......at least directly.

[Space Tycoon]

Obviously the whole thing is ridiculous

Muslims are not exactly fans of dogs. It dates back to the age of the Prophet Muhammad, or so I have been told. I know Muslims who can't stand being in the presence of dogs.

The vast majority of Muslims, however, have better things to do than utter death threats against animals, or anyone else.

Many God-fearing Republicans, on the other hand, see nothing wrong with spending a weekend blasting away at defenceless animals with high-powered rifles, in the name of sport. Magnificent creatures, who have evolved over millions of years to adapt perfectly to their surroundings, only to meet their end at the hands of some drunken, obese, probably inbred "Christian."

Which is the greater pathology?

Those blogs you cite have made it their mission to paint all crimes committed by individual Muslims as part of some "vast Islamic conspiracy," to paraphrase one of your favourite politicians. Ignore them, or at least, take them with a few grains of salt.




.

[Space Tycoon]

Hey man, there's a pretty dangerous website being advertised above. it's called "Muslima," (http://www.muslima.com/?ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=English+Canada+Content+Muslim+Groups&ovcrn=image+ad&ovtac=PPC&gclid=CN75x5qD4pUCFQuXGgodHDfafA) a matrimonial site for Muslims.

Clearly a front for raising the next generation of jihadis.






.

[Senormac]

I didn't know you were so insensitive to the mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of all the poor, defenseless civilians who have been MURDERED by these people. You heartless bastard !! Ok.....I'm just razzin you there......you're prob not really a bastard.....:wink:

Look......the media is all over every singe IED that goes off and kills some US Military people.....cuz there purpose is to promote the idea of how terrible our losses are over there....and how we need to get out NOW!!

Well, why aren't they "all over" all the killings going on around the world by these people......so that the idea that there are ALOT of Muslim terrorists and Muslim psychos out there making up there own rules about things.....and acting on them are out there....and maybe we are doing something constructive about them....eh??? When was the last time you heard about some Christian psycho murderers????.....

Yea, I know.....one surfices and blows up an abortion clinic occasionally......I don't deny it....theres crazies all over......BUT the DAMN MUSLIMS ARE LEADING IN THE KILL TOTALS BY A LARGE MARGIN !!!

[whitetemplar78]

I didn't know you were so insensitive to the mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of all the poor, defenseless civilians who have been MURDERED by these people. You heartless bastard !! Ok.....I'm just razzin you there......you're prob not really a bastard.....:wink:

Look......the media is all over every singe IED that goes off and kills some US Military people.....cuz there purpose is to promote the idea of how terrible our losses are over there....and how we need to get out NOW!!

Well, why aren't they "all over" all the killings going on around the world by these people......so that the idea that there are ALOT of Muslim terrorists and Muslim psychos out there making up there own rules about things.....and acting on them are out there....and maybe we are doing something constructive about them....eh??? When was the last time you heard about some Christian psycho murderers????.....

Yea, I know.....one surfices and blows up an abortion clinic occasionally......I don't deny it....theres crazies all over......BUT the DAMN MUSLIMS ARE LEADING IN THE KILL TOTALS BY A LARGE MARGIN !!!

Well in this, your kinda right, and mostly wrong, really.

Islam has been called a religon of the sword by alot of historians, and even the Pope himself, for good reason back in the 6th century AD they came exploding out of the desert and attacked Byzantium, and Persia, the two huge empires that ruled the Middle East between them, Persia fell, but Byzantium after decades of bloody war, managed to push the Muslims back out of their borders, but Islam was gonna be the death blow of the Eastern Empire, though it would take roughly 800 more years to do it. Also true Islam was the first religion to introduce the famous "Convert or Die" view of whorship, in fact they were really the first to use religion as a reason to war at all. Up too that point, they thought of a "Holy War" was unknown to the Christan world. Byzantium the largest Christan Empire at the time, spent most of its time, just defending itself, and trying to hold off its greedy neighbors, and the rest of the Christan Kingdoms, couldn't fight a large scale war, if their lifes depended on it. But for centuries Byzantium held off the Muslim threat, allowing the West to grow, and gain power, and wasn't long before the Christans took a page from Islams book, and started a little series of genocidal wars we like to call The Crusades. To give Christans credit, they didn't fuck around when they went to war, they went all out. When Jerusalem fell, they decided that the 90,000 or so Mulims living there, had lived lonnnnggg enough......so they killed them...ALL, all in the name of God of course. In contrast when the Muslims retook the city, they allowed the Christan inhabitents to leave in peace.....mmm...yahhh..

So in closing to our history lesson of this post...lol, yes Islam was the first to use war, and holy in the same sentence, but trust me when I say that Christans have not wasted anytime, or effort in matching them, and surppasing them in the bloodbath race

[Bill_the_Pony]

THANK you immensely for that objective historical perspective, there. http://www.mania.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Damn straight. Also worth remembering that Islam and related aspects of the culture have significantly longer memories than most of the Western world. We see decades as a long time, they think in terms of centuries.

[MPG]

Look......the media is all over every singe IED that goes off and kills some US Military people.....cuz there purpose is to promote the idea of how terrible our losses are over there....and how we need to get out NOW!!
Actually, if the media were so "pro-Democrat", they would report most of the items on that web site, because most of them occured in Afghanistan and Iraq. Iraq is a war zone that is only a war zone thanks to the Republican president and Afghanistan is only such a big problem because the Republican president was not willing to commit all of America's military attention to that country. So really, it would be quite anti-Republican to report all these events, because it would give the people who were against the war the chance to say even more often "We told you so!"

When was the last time you heard about some Christian psycho murderers????.....
Well, do you also count how many Christians have killed people in Iraq and Afghanistan recently? According to Palin, we're dealing with holy wars there, so I guess these deaths should count as religiously motivated killings as well, right?
Yea, I know.....one surfices and blows up an abortion clinic occasionally......I don't deny it....theres crazies all over......BUT the DAMN MUSLIMS ARE LEADING IN THE KILL TOTALS BY A LARGE MARGIN !!!
That is most definitely not true if the Iraq war counts as a holy war.

[Space Tycoon]

Also true Islam was the first religion to introduce the famous "Convert or Die" view of whorship, in fact they were really the first to use religion as a reason to war at all. Up too that point, they thought of a "Holy War" was unknown to the Christan world.

Oh, that's not so. There was this fellow named Moses, you see...

Vengeance on the Midianites: (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers%2031;&version=50;)

1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.”
3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm some of yourselves for war, and let them go against the Midianites to take vengeance for the LORD on Midian. 4 A thousand from each tribe of all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war.”
5 So there were recruited from the divisions of Israel one thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 Then Moses sent them to the war, one thousand from each tribe; he sent them to the war with Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, with the holy articles and the signal trumpets in his hand. 7 And they warred against the Midianites, just as the LORD commanded Moses, and they killed all the males. 8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of those who were killed—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. Balaam the son of Beor they also killed with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took the women of Midian captive, with their little ones, and took as spoil all their cattle, all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 They also burned with fire all the cities where they dwelt, and all their forts. 11 And they took all the spoil and all the booty—of man and beast.

Return from the War

12 Then they brought the captives, the booty, and the spoil to Moses, to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the children of Israel, to the camp in the plains of Moab by the Jordan, across from Jericho. 13 And Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation, went to meet them outside the camp. 14 But Moses was angry with the officers of the army, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who had come from the battle.
15 And Moses said to them: “Have you kept all the women alive? 16 Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately. 19 And as for you, remain outside the camp seven days; whoever has killed any person, and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. 20 Purify every garment, everything made of leather, everything woven of goats’ hair, and everything made of wood.”
21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the men of war who had gone to the battle, “This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses: 22 Only the gold, the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 everything that can endure fire, you shall put through the fire, and it shall be clean; and it shall be purified with the water of purification. But all that cannot endure fire you shall put through water. 24 And you shall wash your clothes on the seventh day and be clean, and afterward you may come into the camp.”
Division of the Plunder

[whitetemplar78]

Good points Space, buttt I didn't forget this...I don't take anything the Bible, or Bible related as canon on any historical bases. My family is Catholic, so in a way I am by birth, and let me tell you something that most Christans, and people don't know, or forgot about is that for one, the Bible was put together in the form that most people know it today, welllll after Jesus was dead, and the King James bible....yah, we won't go there, basicaly most of what is in the bible today, was edited...MANY MANY times, and God only knows what Gosples, and writings were held out of it, and are in storage under the Vatican today. And besides that, the Bible was never meant to be a history book, its meant to be a book of morals, like a written moral compass for all good Christans to go by, even to this day, most stories held in it, have strong moral overtones, and also serve as warnings of what happens when wicked ways rule ones hearts. Your example was good, and predated mine by many centuries, but is it spot on?...did that really happen?...just cause the bible, old, and new Testiments say something, doesn't mean its set in stone, in fact much of whats in the bible is grossly inacurate, cause they were written by very simple tribes people that viewed anything that was unknown to them, as a "Act of God" so I try to take what they recorded with a grain of salt. Plus all that we read in the Bible today, as I already stated....was well edited by Mother Church....nope, nooo brain washin there at all...lol

[whitetemplar78]

Damn straight. Also worth remembering that Islam and related aspects of the culture have significantly longer memories than most of the Western world. We see decades as a long time, they think in terms of centuries.

Thanks Dalton, and your right, these people don't forget a slight...at all!...and we in the West can't forget too that socially most of these cultures are at least a century behind us, in how they view rights, the world, and government, and religons role in it, to say that they are from a different world is a understatement.

And thank you too Bill, im a huge history nerd, and im a HUGE fan of Roman, and Byzantium times, and if you've studied Byzantium, then you've studied alot of Biblical info too, cause alot of people don't relieze the MASSIVE impact that the Eastern Empire had on todays modern Christan........and God I love that cat of yours, not a day goes by that his rockin out doesn't make me chuckle alittle....lol

[MPG]

Good points Space, buttt I didn't forget this...I don't take anything the Bible, or Bible related as canon on any historical bases.

Well, historical or not, I think Space is still making the good point that the Bible at least suggests that war as a "normal" method for dealing with religious conflicts. Whether or not these wars actually took place is a different question. :)

[omicron]

This world would be so much better if there was no religion.

I'm just saying.:o

[tstone]

The problem isn't religion, the problem is people who use it to excuse being a dick.

But religion is just one excuse out of many.

No religion, people would still be assholes.

[omicron]

True, people would still be assholes.

But you would have a mass of people being assholes because some 2000yr old book of fairy tales tell them to be.

Would Fred Phelps protest funerals just because he's an asshole? Would young muslims blow up cafes and police stations because they are assholes?

Conversely would people still help out at soup kitchens and old folks home without religion?

I like to think that assholes are assholes regardless of religion. But it seems to me that many people can do bad things because they either believe they will be rewarded by their god or because they believe their god doesn't want them to do something.

I don't see religion preventing bad people from doing things. If there was no religion, would people just go out and steal/rob/rape/assault people? No, because generally people are good and realize those actions are wrong. Not because a book tells them so, but just because it seems wrong; Golden Rule and all.

[Space Tycoon]

The urge to worship and revere someone or something is part of human nature. Probably hardwired in our DNA.

Remove religion, and people would find something or someone else to worship. Marxism, Maoism, Stalinism, Naziism, or even Western pop culture idolatry.

On the whole religion has been a positive force for human development. Most of our moral, ethical and legal priniciples are derived from some religious basis.

The acceptance of one faith or another lends itself to absolutism and intolerance, and that's where the problem comes in.








.

[omicron]

On the whole religion has been a positive force for human development. Most of our moral, ethical and legal priniciples are derived from some religious basis.


I don't agree. Maybe it was a long time ago, but now I view it as a largely archaic organization more interested in preserving the past and their power than making this world a better place.

Do I need religion to realize that treating people equally and fairly is the correct thing to do? No. It's not as if people were walking around bopping people over the head and stealing stuff until the 10 Commandment or the Torah came around, and suddenly stopped. Alot of the ancient laws and codex are from religious texts, but that may just be because those are the only things to survive this long.

It seems to me that many things that should be right are prevented by religious objections. Stem Cell research. Gay marriages. Hell, selling beer on Sunday!!! :)

[Space Tycoon]

I don't agree. Maybe it was a long time ago, but now I view it as a largely archaic organization more interested in preserving the past and their power than making this world a better place.

Brings to mind that line from Gladiator: "Let the people keep their illusions/traditions." People need that connection to their past and their ancestors. Again, it's part of what makes us human.


It seems to me that many things that should be right are prevented by religious objections. Stem Cell research. Gay marriages. Hell, selling beer on Sunday!!! :)

There are objections to all of these things on ethical/practical/moral or even economic grounds, not necessarily just religious. Researching stem cells is fine.

As long as they're not harvested from aborted human babies, go for it. That practise is ghoulish, like something out of Dr. Mengele's laboratory.





.

[neglet]

I When was the last time you heard about some Christian psycho murderers????.....

Well, there was this upstanding citizen, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader) the president of his Congregation Council....

[TrixieB]

Or this devout Catholic, Republican young man. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_mcveigh)

[Al-Dog]

It’s a bit of a stretch comparing serial killers who happen to be Christian to fundamentalist Islamic radicals.

Better matches would be groups like the Ku Klux Klan, Christian Identity, and its various offshoots such as the Aryan Nation, Aryan Republican Army (ARA) and individuals like Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma City bomber) or Eric Robert Rudolph, who bombed Centennial Park during the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta as well as gay clubs and abortion clinics.

[tstone]

True, people would still be assholes.

But you would have a mass of people being assholes because some 2000yr old book of fairy tales tell them to be.

Would Fred Phelps protest funerals just because he's an asshole? Would young muslims blow up cafes and police stations because they are assholes?

Conversely would people still help out at soup kitchens and old folks home without religion?

I like to think that assholes are assholes regardless of religion. But it seems to me that many people can do bad things because they either believe they will be rewarded by their god or because they believe their god doesn't want them to do something.

I don't see religion preventing bad people from doing things. If there was no religion, would people just go out and steal/rob/rape/assault people? No, because generally people are good and realize those actions are wrong. Not because a book tells them so, but just because it seems wrong; Golden Rule and all.


You answer your own questions, noting people being inspired to do GOOD works because of their faith, and I guarantee those outnumber the assholes.

Also, let's note that far MORE people go out and do asshole things for other motives that have nothing to do with religion.

People AREN'T basically good, a faith based statement if there ever was one. People are just basically people, with the potential for both.

What YOU are, ultimately, is what you choose on a daily basis.

[tstone]

I agree almost completely with your statement, Space, except for the below...

The urge to worship and revere someone or something is part of human nature. Probably hardwired in our DNA.


I HATE this tendency of late to try to explain all the mysteries of human behavior on some nip or tuck in our DNA helix.

We are beings with free will, and most of what we choose, we can't retreat to a bio/electrical/mechanical excuse.

We only have ourselves as an explanation.

Fact is, pure science alone, studying the nuts and bolts of existence, is absolutely incapable of answering all the essential questions of existence, especially the more esoterical questions of purpose, of being, of WHY.

Science will never be able to deal with those questions, as it simply doesn't address those in it's raison detre'.

Religion DOES explore those issues. And some find satisfactory answers to them.

Bottom line is, we humans all FEEL there is something...higher to existence. And much of life is each of us trying to come to grips with it. Or ignoring/dismissing it.

But it's clear this yearning is all around us, nonetheless.

[MPG]

It’s a bit of a stretch comparing serial killers who happen to be Christian to fundamentalist Islamic radicals.

Yes, but that's how that website Senormac linked to works. There are so many "incidents" listed there that probably would have happened in the same way if the people involved were Christians, Jews or Buddhists, because they happened in war zones, because they were committed by people who hate each other for any kind of pseudo-religious reasons or by people who were just plain crazy. Then the website puts all of these incidents into one big box with the label "Islamic Violence" on it.

That's how any kind of bigotry works. Let's say Mr. X has two neighbors: One is white, one is black. Both rob a bank. Mr. X thinks that the white guy did it because he needed money and the black guy did it because he's black. The next day he starts a webpage saying "My black neighbor robbed a bank!" Mr. S also has two neighbors. One is a Muslim, the other is a Christian. Both kill someone. Mr. S thinks that the Christian killed someone because he really isn't a Christian in his heart and the Muslim killed someone because he's a Muslim.

It's just convenient when you can always adjust people's motivations in hindsight to fit in with your world view.

[MPG]

Fact is, pure science alone, studying the nuts and bolts of existence, is absolutely capable of answering all the essential questions of existence, especially the more esoterical questions of purpose, of being, of WHY.

Science will never be able to deal with those questions, as it simply doesn't address those in it's raison detre'.
Depends on whether or not you call philosophy a "science".
Religion DOES explore those issues. And some find satisfactory answers to them.
Really? That's what the Christians at my front door keep claiming, but when I put them on the spot and ask them "So then what is the meaning of life?" they stutter and finally give some dissatisfying answer like "Jesus is the meaning." As the great philosopher Homer put it so astutely "This book has no answers!" :D
Bottom line is, we humans all FEEL there is something...higher to existence.
How exactly do you know what other humans feel?

[tstone]

Depends on whether or not you call philosophy a "science".


I personally don't.


Really? That's what the Christians at my front door keep claiming, but when I put them on the spot and ask them "So then what is the meaning of life?" they stutter and finally give some dissatisfying answer like "Jesus is the meaning." As the great philosopher Homer put it so astutely "This book has no answers!" :D


You are taking the wrong approach and so are they. Seeking to play gotcha games with them isn't an honest exploration of their views. And they are attempting to frame an answer into your perspective, when they really can't. That's not how any person of faith views it. It's faith. They have found something that locks into place for them, but it hasn't locked into place for you, nor will it necessarily do so, as that's for you to discover.

All they can do is answer questions.

The meaning of life question is not a fair one. It's an answer they have accepted, and it makes sense to them. You haven't, and for you, it doesn't. That doesn't equate to "no answers". That merely isn't one for you.

You ask that question like there is some kind of empirical one size fits all answer to it, when there may not be one. It may (and I believe it is) something for everyone to discover for themselves.




How exactly do you know what other humans feel?

I can only go by my own, and external evidence indicated by thousands of years of history, art, literature and general ruminating, metriculating and angsting over this question that remains elusive, yet refuses to die, despite multiple declarations of it's critical conditions by those who would try to dismiss it completely.

It won't die.

[MPG]

I personally don't.
Well, let's agree to disagree then. For me, philosophy is clearly a science. In fact, there was a time when sciences like biology, mathematics and physics were inseparable from philosophy.
You ask that question like there is some kind of empirical one size fits all answer to it, when there may not be one. It may (and I believe it is) something for everyone to discover for themselves.
Of course there's a simple "one size fits all" answer.

The answer is: There is no deeper meaning.

People keep searching for a deeper meaning not because that answer is wrong, but because they don't like it. When someone asks "What is the meaning of life?" they don't look for a truthful answer but for a satisfying answer. That's one reason why I am not religious. I can live with answers that I don't like. Most people can't. Perhaps that's the reason why - as you stated - religion hasn't died yet.

It's a bit like saying "3+4 can't be 7, because 7 is such an ugly number. So let's write thousands of books about how 3+4 is "6", "8", god" or "Mr. Mxyzptlk". :D
I can only go by my own, and external evidence indicated by thousands of years of history, art, literature and general ruminating, metriculating and angsting over this question that remains elusive, yet refuses to die, despite multiple declarations of it's critical conditions by those who would try to dismiss it completely.
I don't subscribe to the "It is the way it is because it has always been that way, so it will always be the way it is now" theory. But in any case, you have not explained how you know what everyone feels. You just stated that you know what many people (or probably a majority) have felt throughout history. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who didn't and don't feel like that.

[tstone]

Well, let's agree to disagree then. For me, philosophy is clearly a science. In fact, there was a time when sciences like biology, mathematics and physics were inseparable from philosophy.


Inseperable, meaning the same people discussed all those issues. But the answers to philosophy aren't found in a test tube.


Of course there's a simple "one size fits all" answer.

The answer is: There is no deeper meaning.


Prove it.

:D

Yet, the experiences, explorations and the continuing persistence of the issue belies that one answer as well.


People keep searching for a deeper meaning not because that answer is wrong, but because they don't like it. When someone asks "What is the meaning of life?" they don't look for a truthful answer but for a satisfying answer. That's one reason why I am not religious. I can live with answers that I don't like. Most people can't. Perhaps that's the reason why - as you stated - religion hasn't died yet.


Just because it's an answer you don't like, doesn't make it the right answer. Because that's riding on the assumption that when SCIENCE can't answer it, there is no answer. And that is less borne out of science, and out of the FAITH, yes, faith, that any answer science offers is the definitive answer to any question, and if science can't answer it, there is no answer.

Many philosphers disagree, which is part of the reason the two schools of thought have departed.

These philospher/scientists types you referred to were, many of them, men of faith as well.


It's a bit like saying "3+4 can't be 7, because 7 is such an ugly number. So let's write thousands of books about how 3+4 is "6", "8", god" or "Mr. Mxyzptlk". :D


No, it's really not, because the question posed by "What is three plus four" is not the same as "What is the meaning?"


I don't subscribe to the "It is the way it is because it has always been that way, so it will always be the way it is now" theory. But in any case, you have not explained how you know what everyone feels. You just stated that you know what many people (or probably a majority) have felt throughout history. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who didn't and don't feel like that.

There's no way I can imperically know. But then, many assumptions in science are not definitive, just based upon a preponderance of the available evidence.

Based upon said evidence, I have faith in my answer.

:smirk:

[Bill_the_Pony]

I suppose we can be thankful that our troops aren't being sent to Chicago, seeing that more people were shot there this summer than troops shot in Iraq over the same period. :Tongue:

disclaimer: That's not meant to serve either side, that is if you're taking one.

[MPG]

Bottom line is, we humans all FEEL there is something...higher to existence. And much of life is each of us trying to come to grips with it. Or ignoring/dismissing it.

But it's clear this yearning is all around us, nonetheless.

tstone, I sort of had this itch in the back of my mind that I had not properly replied to your assertion and that I disagreed too easily when there is really a slightly more subtle approach to this discussion. I think it comes from posting from work. :D But now that I have some more time, I just want to throw in a little more food for thought:

Yes, there might be the feeling that there is "something". I attribute this to pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia). In my opinion, it is the origin of all religion and superstition. It is the human urge to see patterns in everything, even if there are no patterns. It is actually beneficial for us, because a large part of being intelligent is to understand the patterns in the world around us. If you drop an egg, it will break. If you drop it again, it will break again. If you can't grasp that pattern, you will be breaking eggs your whole life, so understanding a pattern really quickly is essential for getting through life.

But then take the following example: Sometimes, during really good moments, someone might say something like "Remember this moment, because life might never be that good again!" It's a simple phrase to remind people to appreciate their lives. Someone can say this a hundred times and nobody will really think much of it. But what if someone says it and by pure coincidence, he has a car accident the next day and dies? There will always be people who will say "Oh, he had a premonition of his death!" That is pareidolia. People make a connection where there is none, because suddenly they forget that the same person has possibly said the same thing many many times without dying the next day. The interesting thing is that connections like this are always made in hindsight. If someone says "Remember this moment!" and someone replies "Do you have a premonition of your own death??" it would be considered crazy talk by most, but if that connection is made in hindsight it is considered to be ok, even though it is not more or less smart than making the connection immediately.

And when you say that people "feel" that there is something more important, something that is holding everything together, I think it is also just the urge to see a pattern in everything. It is probably more comfortable to the human mind to think that everything (including ourselves) has a purpose (=is connected to something else in some pattern) as opposed to just attributing some things to pure coincidence.

Another example is my friend who got addicted to playing slot machines for a while. It was amazing to observe that he really believed that he could influence the machine by using it in a certain way. He thought that certain actions could make it more likely for him to win or lose. How did he get that idea? Probably he did something, then won, and immediately, the pattern got stuck in his mind, and he assumed that he would win again if he did the same thing. When he lost the next time, he did not even question his "theory". He just assumed that he had done it wrong somehow. The pattern was so stuck in his mind that he would rather assume incompetence for himself than to question the pattern. It got so far that he thought he had to put the coins into the machine in a certain way to improve his chances of winning. He assumed an intelligence in the machine. He felt that there was something "higher". But there wasn't. I think he had to feel that there is some intelligence there, or else he would have realized how ridiculous it was that he kept wasting his time and his money on that machine. If there's an intelligence in these machines, it most certainly doesn't work like that, and it definitely doesn't depend on how you put the coins in. Ironically enough, he was the most deeply religious person I have ever known. I don't know if I see a pattern here.

It works the same way with prayer. A religious person might pray, and the next day, they get what they prayed for by pure coincidence. Of course, they assume that the prayer made it happen, so they pray again. If they don't get what they pray for, they will not think "Oh, perhaps prayer doesn't work after all!" but they will believe that they didn't pray hard enough or that they demanded too much. It's amazing to me that people are more likely to question themselves than to question some ridiculous theory that might at times be based on just one or two coincidences.

So yes, perhaps there is the "feeling" that there is something higher that connects everything. Perhaps there is an urge to believe that. But human intelligence is what counteracts over-the-top pareidolia. Simple intelligent thought can tell you which patterns are real and which ones are really there. The real patterns are usually the ones which can be easily repeated and the ones which don't appear in hindsight. But still everyone can fall easily for the deception of pareidolia. I also have the feeling that it usually rains when I forget my umbrella at home. Still, it's a bit preposterous to assume that the weather adapts to my habits. :D But anyway, I have to agree that yes, perhaps there is something that makes us want to believe that "something" is there. And it can be explained scientifically.

[tstone]

But anyway, I have to agree that yes, perhaps there is something that makes us want to believe that "something" is there. And it can be explained scientifically.


So you are shifting your position, from "there is nothing there" to, well, "there is something there, but it's really all in your head."

But to me, it all seems to be shifting and dodging to avoid even considering the possibility that there may indeed be something there, and it isn't all "just in our heads".

Believe me, I do know the difference between a sense of the transcendental, the "peace that passes all understanding" and looking up at the clouds and seeing a duck in the fluffy cumulosi.

I especially find the "prayer" example ridiculous. Your seem to have the idea that unless prayer is fulfilled like some kind of magic wish fulfilling genie, the phenomenon is invalid.

Bottom line, you are just exhibiting the same pattern any human believing in an "ism" exhibits. In your case, the "ism" is "scientism". You go beyond what science can prove, to trying to make something outside it's realm of expertise, it's strength, fit within it. All idealogues, political, religious and scientific, try to do this. Because there seems to be this tendency in all hardcore believers in an "ism" that there is nothing their "ism" can't explain/account for/etc.

:smirk:

No one has all the answers. Not any theologian, any member of any Party, nor any scientist.

And just speaking for myself, nothing "makes me want to believe". I simply do believe. And this is after a long time exploring the issues and my own experiences, from being taught religion as a kid, to breaking away into agnosticism for many years to back where I am now, CERTAIN, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that something is out there, and when I die, that will just be my physical shell passing.

I will go on.

This is not something I "want to believe".

I know it.

[sickness]

As a scientist, let me say that science decidedly does NOT answer the God question. It doesn't even acknowledge it because it is simply beyond the scope of what science tries to achieve. Always will be. Any attempts to address anything which is beyond our perceptions (belief in a diety who runs the universe is and always will be beyond our perception since he/she must clearly be running it from outside of it) are squarely laid in the realm of philosophy.

[omicron]

yet you still have those idiots who want Intelligent Design and Creationism taught in science class.....:rolleyes:

[sickness]

And yet we still were able to convince Leiter that they should be tought in philosophy and comparative religion classes instead of science classes. There's still hope for the world. ;)

[tstone]

Absolutely, those things do belong in philosophy/comparative religion courses.

But they ARE serious questions, worth considering, but it's up to each individual to find the answer for themselves. No one's dogma will handhold them to the conclusion.

I'm just annoyed by "scientism", the assumption among some science adherents, that just because science can't provide a firm answer, therefore there IS no answer. Or it's "all in your head".

[sickness]

Which is why I'm an agnostic and any reasonable scientist should be. Saying there is no God or whathaveyou takes as much faith as saying there is.

[tstone]

Sure, if your view on those things need to be based purely in science as it stands now (which is always changing).

However, there are scientists who also claim a religious faith. And there are atheists, which I have no problem with. But they need to be honest about it, as you noted above, it requiring just as much "faith" to adopt such a stance.

[sickness]

If science chooses to address the metaphysical in its ever-changing state, then I sumbit that it is no longer science. The second it takes on something which can never be proven, it fails the most basic test of a science.

[tstone]

You misunderstood me. Science is always changing. It is it's very nature to change as the course of investigation and discovery continues.

This would be whatever it chooses to investigate, as the course of discovery frequently changes previously held assumptions.

[Jakester]

I agree, T. It may be that science cannot prove something, but the attempt must be made in order for that to be known. And at some point in the future, new methods and/or knowledge may make it worthwhile to attempt again.

[Senormac]

I have been away for awhile but had the chance today to stop in and read this discussion and I have really enjoyed it. I myself, have come to understand, in the 30 years since I first heard HIS voice call me, that He can NOT be proven......nor will HE ever allow HIMSELF to be proven. He has set up a system, a world, a galaxy and a universe that operate on the foundation of FAITH. But not on faith alone........its built on faith connected to a BILLION little signs all around us that point right to HIMSELF. And He, the creator, has made man to be able to live his life with.....or without building their life on that foundation....because what He has given to us (mankind) is a gift. It's ......The Gift of Life......

So, I can't answer all the questions that people bring up to me.....all I can do is tell people where to find the answers..... and thats with Jesus the Savior.

There is a verse in His book that says.....without faith, no one can please God. But oh.......after a person has passed through the faith doorway.....all kinds of things are seen, understood, and experienced...

In the link below is a bunch of stories about things that have happened to me.....because I walk in faith. I admit.....some of the stories are pretty fantastic.....but, I'm telling you straight up......and the honest truth. The faith walk is, and can be even MORE wild that my little testimonies. Walking with Jesus......Is an adventure. And remember.....I'm not saying.....go to church....I'm saying WALK WITH JESUS !!

http://harvestnet.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=185&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Outsydr]

I have been away for awhile but had the chance today to stop in and read this discussion and I have really enjoyed it. I myself, have come to understand, in the 30 years since I first heard HIS voice call me, that He can NOT be proven......nor will HE ever allow HIMSELF to be proven. He has set up a system, a world, a galaxy and a universe that operate on the foundation of FAITH. But not on faith alone........its built on faith connected to a BILLION little signs all around us that point right to HIMSELF. And He, the creator, has made man to be able to live his life with.....or without building their life on that foundation....because what He has given to us (mankind) is a gift. It's ......The Gift of Life......

So, I can't answer all the questions that people bring up to me.....all I can do is tell people where to find the answers..... and thats with Jesus the Savior.

There is a verse in His book that says.....without faith, no one can please God. But oh.......after a person has passed through the faith doorway.....all kinds of things are seen, understood, and experienced...

In the link below is a bunch of stories about things that have happened to me.....because I walk in faith. I admit.....some of the stories are pretty fantastic.....but, I'm telling you straight up......and the honest truth. The faith walk is, and can be even MORE wild that my little testimonies. Walking with Jesus......Is an adventure. And remember.....I'm not saying.....go to church....I'm saying WALK WITH JESUS !!

http://harvestnet.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=185&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0



....



http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h308/TK_Grimmlok/sigh.jpg

[whitetemplar78]

Senormac, I have respect for your beliefs, and your strong sense of faith, thats awsome. But as a historian buff, and reader of everything history wise I tend to take a more "broad" minded view of things. As people we can't forget that 2500 years ago, the Greeks believed just as strongly then in the Gods of Olympus, that Christans do today in Jesus, and the stories of the Bible. Some laugh, and say that no Gods walked amoung man then, that Athena didn't spring from the head of Zeus, that Cronus didn't eat his children, and so on. Really, so Moses did in fact part a entire sea?.....Jeus walked on water?.....Jonah lived in a whale?.... And why does all this stuff happen hundreds, and hundreds of years ago?..... why not today?.... Perhaps that these took place in a time of superstions, and primitive peoples might have had some say in this?... When horrible storms were blamed on the wrath of God, when in fact its just weather, or Plagues where Punishments for sins, when it was Fleas on rats. In those times, and days anything out of the ordinenary was always seen as mystical, or the Power of God, when most of it could be explained by simple logic, and reason. Maybe this stuff doesn't happen today, cause the mystical aspects of the world have been explained by Science..the magic of the world faded away, cause in truth, it was just Nature.....
Is there a God?......of course, is it what we have created, and believe?.....NO the belief of what God is today, is what mankind has built over thousands of years of belief, and faith, but trust me its not what he really is, God is a word that we as humans have given to the very Force and power of the Universe around us today, God is a label for a power, that we AS humans can never BEGIN to understand... but in the end your faith is right on one thing...there is a greater force out there, then what we know, or can begin to understand, and one day when you leave this world, your faith, and questions will be answered.

[tstone]

And "magic" happens around us all the time. Most small incidents, easily dismissed, some big, yet still dismissed, because it defies widely accepted preconceptions about reality.

But signs and wonders are just as much a part of today as they were back in the day.

[Bill_the_Pony]

"Quoddam Ubique-Qouddam Semper-Quoddam Ab Omnibus-Creditum Est.... which means, Magic is everywhere, and all over the world it is a recognized fact; always."


guess which movie. :D

[Woodwraith]

http://www.devildead.com/conandvd/conan003baruck.jpg

Hmmm... Let me think.... :headscratch: