X-Men vs. Islam [Archive] - Mania Forums - Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Entertainment

swingerbone

05-08-2003, 11:40 PM

September 11th was horrendously carried out by Islamic Extremists. Essentialy something like 29 out of 30 Terrorist attacks on the U.S. have been committed by Islamic Extremists.

And no Islamic Religious leaders have ever spoken against the action of those terrorists. Terrorists who claimed to be doing this for religious reasons. The leaders have never sought to distance themselves from those actions.

So I can understand Ed's POV. I don't necessarily agree with it... but it's his opinion.

Clinton let the stuff go, like the U.S.S. Cole bombing... but Bush went after them in Afghanistan... so now they are reduced to making up grievances in popular movies to try and gain sympathies. You'd think a movie about tolerance would be something they'd be all for.

If I had to guess I would say his ring is probably a WS like Ed said... or maybe a class ring for West Point or some military related ring. He's a General after all.

Kinda surprised that Essex would jump on Ed like that. But people have their buttons... so you never know what'll set them off.

I personally don't know any Muslims, and I tend to get to know people before I judge them too much. There's always a natural amount of judging when you just see someone, but I guess I am optimistic and try to look for the good in people.

Lashing out at a comic movie... well maybe it will get more people to see it, so they can look for the ring... see it could have a good side http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/smile.gif

Swingerbone

[This message has been edited by swingerbone (edited 05-09-2003).]

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 03:58 AM

I saw X2 again tonight (fifth time) and I was looking very closely for the ring. I saw it... But nothing that remotely looks like 'Allah' in English or Arabic.

Yeah, Ed's statements were harsh and extreme, but I could understand how he may've felt provoked. Left and right over the past two years, I've seen a lot of cases of Muslims crying discrimination... Sure, many of them are legitimate complaints. But many others have been completely baseless. We've had several cases of it right at ASU... One student in particular who was "attacked" twice in two seperate incidents. After investigation, the student was arrested for falsifying statements, obstruction of justice, etc... He'd made up both stories entirely. Now a Muslim organization is making this absurd statement about the inclusion of some ring being racist. I'll even excuse the fact that it's almost impossible to see any amount of detail on the ring--perhaps someone's screen was in better focus, or they were looking harder. But I agree with D.K. Hood... It is ridiculous that they throw out this statement without giving Cox, Singer, or the production at Fox any chance to explain the ring.

Why on earth would the organization make such a rash decision and statement? My guess is to invoke the same type of extreme reaction as Ed here has offered, only among Muslims against American culture. And I don't say that as anything defamatory or discriminatory... I just don't see for what other reason they'd handle this as they have. So, I guess they're getting what they want.

ali786

05-09-2003, 04:39 AM

I'm a muslim and a long-time fan of X-Men, I believe its unlikely that there's some kind of hidden agenda involved in the film, even subconsciously that is anti-Islam..or I'd hope so anyway..if anything the idea of being misunderstood or feared is more applicable to the feeling of alot of muslims, misguided ones or not...any ignorant points of view are just that..ignorant, but everyones entitled to express what they think.

webslinger2k

05-09-2003, 08:19 AM

its reverse psychology from the muslim extremists here i think. They point out how anti islam america is at the moment, and talk of non exsistent references to muslim bashing to get other muslims more riled up. they have been doing that kind of thing for years.

i agree with Ed. Stryker may well be a muslims, and if we look into his character bio there are definite trends between himself and muslim extremists.... so if it happens in real life, why cannot it not appear in film.

ali786

05-09-2003, 08:49 AM

God Loves, Man Kills

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 11:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by webslinger2k:
its reverse psychology from the muslim extremists here i think. They point out how anti islam america is at the moment, and talk of non exsistent references to muslim bashing to get other muslims more riled up. they have been doing that kind of thing for years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello all,
I was actually hoping to see a post on this here as it is the location that first pointed the story out to me. I was very annoyed by this story...so annoyed that I e-mailed Najee Ali and asked him about it.

You know what? He wrote back! Same day. He answered all my questions pertaining to the story and I learned quite a bit from his response. One thing I learned is that they contacted Bryan Singer on Friday, waited until Wednesday to release their statement and from my last e-mail from him this morning have yet to receive any response at all.

Now, I am a white Christian male, aged 33 and Islam is not very high on my list of likable groups. However, the response I received was dignified, respectful and completely and totally VOID of any rhetoric whatsoever. The complaint made was that the ring (which is not noticable unless you are Muslim) was placed on a villain who was never before written as Muslim. His complaint was about an unnecessary change to a character that, if intentional, was done in very poor taste.

i agree with Ed. Stryker may well be a muslims, and if we look into his character bio there are definite trends between himself and muslim extremists.... so if it happens in real life, why cannot it not appear in film.

I'll concede that to a point. We all know he was never Muslim. That's backed up by "God Loves, Man Kills". The trends you speak of are similar to ALL extremists, not just Muslims. We all know about the recent events of the world and the emotions that they conjure within us. Apparantly, the ring is instantly recognizable to a Muslim, which would indicate to me that it was targeted since it blew right by me. If that is the case, due to recent events it was done in very poor taste.

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 11:21 AM

How is the ring so noticeable by muslims? It's pretty much impossible to discern any detail from it. Is the design persian or something?

I find it funny that he says "It's something only noticeable to Muslims." If that's the case, shouldn't he consider that perhaps it was just one of a hundred rings in a prop drawer and nobody in the production noticed the Islamic connotations?

And let me get this straight... He attempted to contact Singer Friday, and expects the director to deal with the studio, actor, and any legal scenarios that could come into play in this case, not to mention do all the countless normal duties a directer faces during the opening week or a major summer blockbuster... and do all this within five days? Good grief, it would probably take longer than that just to dig up the ring they're complaining about.

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 12:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thom:
How is the ring so noticeable by muslims? It's pretty much impossible to discern any detail from it. Is the design persian or something?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not get the full gist of it as I cannot find the symbol anywhere on the 'Net. But one of my searches was "Islamic symbol of Allah" which was used in several articles and I came upon a reference to the Iranian flag having that symbol. So I checked it out and I can see that a Muslim would catch it instantly where a non-Muslim would completely miss it. I can understand that concept at least.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I find it funny that he says "It's something only noticeable to Muslims." If that's the case, shouldn't he consider that perhaps it was just one of a hundred rings in a prop drawer and nobody in the production noticed the Islamic connotations?
[QUOTE]

I was curious about that part of it as well. I was talking with a co-worker about it and he made me think about it from this point of view. Wardrobes are meticulously created for films and gone over with, typically, great care. Mr. Singer has also demonstrated a pretty high attention to detail in his productions (that's a compliment,by the way). So, with those thoughts in mind, it seems a bit hard to swallow that this detail would just slip by. Although that possibility still exists.

[QUOTE]And let me get this straight... He attempted to contact Singer Friday, and expects the director to deal with the studio, actor, and any legal scenarios that could come into play in this case, not to mention do all the countless normal duties a directer faces during the opening week or a major summer blockbuster... and do all this within five days? Good grief, it would probably take longer than that just to dig up the ring they're complaining about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. Now, you're the director of a blockbuster film. Someone levels an accusation towards you relating to your film and pertaining to discrimination. I don't know about you, but when I am accused of something I am VERY quick to defend myself. Not only that, but don't you think the studio would be issuing a statement almost instantly to save face? They always do. Yet in this case there is silence.

I don't want to assign guilt or innocence, but the more emotion I take away from this and intellect that I place towards it, the more realistic the claim becomes. I would be happy to let you see the e-mail that I recieved. This man did not give me the feeling of someone playing up to publicity or making a baseless accusation...and I consider myself to be EXTREMELY skeptical of groups like his.

Come on, he's in charge of a fairly large group with plenty of responsibility (I would guess) and he took the time to not only respond to, but logically and civilly discuss the matter with a nobody like me.

The man earned my respect...and that's not easy to do these days.

I'm going again to see it, so I'll be able to check the ring better (and enjoy an AWESOME film) and I now have more knowledge to better judge for myself. If the symbol is there, then I actually do agree that an apology should be given. If not, I think that he should apologize as well.

Either way, to my eyes, his concern has more merit today than it did yesterday.

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 12:36 PM

Well, I'm quite aware of what the Arabic symbol for Allah looks like myself, and I didn't see anything that resembles it on the ring. I'll be interested to hear if you see anything differently.

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 12:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thom:
Well, I'm quite aware of what the Arabic symbol for Allah looks like myself, and I didn't see anything that resembles it on the ring. I'll be interested to hear if you see anything differently.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thom,
Do you have a picture? Or point me to one?

All I have seen is the symbol on the Iranian flag in the center and I am not sure if that is it.

D.K.HOOD

05-09-2003, 01:02 PM

First off, Thom you've seen the film a lot so I want to ask you does Stryker really appear withing the first 5 minutes? It seemed a little longer than that to me.

And second here's some more of Ali's quotes on X2:
"Prejudice and bias are the themes throughout the 'X-Men' movies as well as the comic book series. It's unfortunate, as we continue to live in a post 9-11 world, that Singer would engage in a subtle campaign to breed intolerance and hate. This is what The X-Men always fought against. American Muslims and Jews should work together to end bias and discrimination."

Now if you read between the lines, basically what Ali is saying is that because Singer is Jewish, he deliberately added this ring as an attack on Muslims. I'm no lawyer but Ali's comments sound like grounds for a lawsuit against him for slander.

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 01:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by D.K.HOOD:
First off, Thom you've seen the film a lot so I want to ask you does Stryker really appear withing the first 5 minutes? It seemed a little longer than that to me.

And second here's some more of Ali's quotes on X2:
"Prejudice and bias are the themes throughout the 'X-Men' movies as well as the comic book series. It's unfortunate, as we continue to live in a post 9-11 world, that Singer would engage in a subtle campaign to breed intolerance and hate. This is what The X-Men always fought against. American Muslims and Jews should work together to end bias and discrimination."

Now if you read between the lines, basically what Ali is saying is that because Singer is Jewish, he deliberately added this ring as an attack on Muslims. I'm no lawyer but Ali's comments sound like grounds for a lawsuit against him for slander.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it could be. If the accusation proves false. What if it should prove to be true, though? As a nation, we have been given reasons lately to distrust all things Muslim. The question is do we fall victim to that or do we still maintain the effort to locate truth.

I was bothered by this story like everyone and was more than willing to distrust the claim. Once I let my anger subside a little I started researching the claim and learned more than I thought I would. I was surprised at just how much creedence there was in his statement. That's why I want to locate a picture of this symbol. I want to make the comparison for myself.

MarvelKid18

05-09-2003, 01:29 PM

Give me a break... this is yet another useless topic with useless information. This "Ali" is a moron, and whoever agrees with his very FALSE statements is a moron with him.

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 02:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MarvelKid18:
Give me a break... this is yet another useless topic with useless information. This "Ali" is a moron, and whoever agrees with his very FALSE statements is a moron with him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't take this the wrong way Kid, but I would not consider myself to be a moron. I am an educated man with a pretty good intellect. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I do know how to think.

My first reaction was emotional. When I brought intellect into it, I collected what information I could and found that there was something behind the claim. I, too, thought Mr. Ali was just a propaganda machine looking for an outlet. After communicating with him, I now know differently.

He is also a fan of the books and told me that he saw the movie several times. He answered my questions respectfully and with absolutely no political rhetoric. He came across as a very intelligent man and treated my admitted ignorance of the subject with knowledge instead of crap.

Granted, the responses he gave to me seemed a little hurried, but they were still provided. I've written e-mails to other groups before and never recieved answers at all. Mr. Ali answered within an hour or two. I'm a nobody to a group such as his. Why should I count? But he still responded. To me, that shows class and integrity. Not traits commonly found in your typical "moron".

Now, here's a question for you. Are you open enough to read his response to me? If so, I'd be glad to forward it to you or I'll post it here.

I'm a firm believer in giving everyone a fair shake. I was cynical about it when I wrote to him and he provided me everything that I asked him to...and showed me that I may have been incorrect.

Essex

05-09-2003, 02:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by swingerbone:
Kinda surprised that Essex would jump on Ed like that. But people have their buttons... so you never know what'll set them off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not "set off" and none of my "buttons" were pushed. Racism is not a button, it is a global problem. And what Mr. Hopkins said WAS racist. He lumped every single Muslim into one disturbing package with little regard and then actually expressed going out of his way to distrust all of them. Furthemore, he insinuated that all members of Islam were killers.

Such statements are completely prejudice and downright disturbing.

I don't agree with what Singer is being accused of, but I DO have the sense to realize the man accusing him does not speak for all Muslims. Neither do any fanatical terrorists.

Warlock...welcome to C2F. It's really great to have you here, by the way. You seem like a great guy.

------------------
"That which does not kill us...makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild, Aeon Flux

D.K.HOOD

05-09-2003, 02:36 PM

Warlock, spokesman or leader for a group has some kind of charisma, that's how they get to be in that position. I'm usually the most objective person I know, but when something just screams "wrong" to me I have to follow my gut. And Ali is wrong. He claims that this is a "subtle" attack on Muslims because a villain wearing is wearing a ring that allegedly has the arrabic symbol for Allah on it. Its a ridiculous allegation that should not be taken seriously. He wants to drag religion into this, how about freedom of speech? Demanding that this scene be removed from the film is a direct "attack" on that ammendment. If the scene were to be removed, then some idiot from a ultra conservative Christian group could make allegations against John Woo for having Nicholas Cage dress up as a priest in Face/Off and have that scene removed! I agree everybody deserves a fair chance but you also have to step back and observe everything from a distance to see the big picture.

imported_Robbo

05-09-2003, 02:54 PM

My big problem with Najee Ali's position is this. He says, "We feel this is a subtle but obvious attack on Islam."

Think about that word "attack". Bryan Singer (and/or other parties involved with the production of "X2") decide to launch an attack on Islam. So how do they do it? With a blink-and-miss it appearance of a prop that few people even recognize.

Even Thom, who has seen the movie several times and knows the symbol in question failed to recognize it. Even when he was specifically looking for it.

I would say that Singer and company's attack has failed miserably.

In fact, their campaign of intolerance (which runs completely contrary to the overt message of tolerance contained in the movie) would have failed COMPLETELY if it were not for the efforts of Najee Ali.

So, in my mind, Ali has turned the tables on himself and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by giving the evil Bryan Singer's campaign of intolerance a huge boost.

My secondary problem with Najee Ali's position is this: If the biggest problem Muslims have in the world face that a movie villain is equated to them in a subtle way that nobody even recognizes, then they're in pretty good shape. Hell, they're in great shape. If that's the worst form of intolerance hurled at them then they must live in some kind of paradise.

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 03:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by D.K.HOOD:
Warlock, spokesman or leader for a group has some kind of charisma, that's how they get to be in that position. I'm usually the most objective person I know, but when something just screams "wrong" to me I have to follow my gut. And Ali is wrong. He claims that this is a "subtle" attack on Muslims because a villain wearing is wearing a ring that allegedly has the arrabic symbol for Allah on it. Its a ridiculous allegation that should not be taken seriously. He wants to drag religion into this, how about freedom of speech? Demanding that this scene be removed from the film is a direct "attack" on that ammendment. If the scene were to be removed, then some idiot from a ultra conservative Christian group could make allegations against John Woo for having Nicholas Cage dress up as a priest in Face/Off and have that scene removed! I agree everybody deserves a fair chance but you also have to step back and observe everything from a distance to see the big picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

D.K.:
You are very correct and that is also where I diverge from Mr. Ali's statement. I do not feel this should be removed for any reason. That part of it is truly petty and really would lead this nation down an even more dangerous path than we are already on.

Look at it from this point. American prejudice against Muslims not only exists, but has been increased dramatically over the last few years. If this truly were a subtle attack on Islam, wouldn't now be the perfect time to do it since the level of distrust is so high? If the trust is not there any claims of attack would be automatically dismissed. I've read many of your posts and you do appear to be a very objective person. I hope you will apply that objectivity here and look at this closer.

I also follow my gut instinct (and it's a big enough gut) in most instances. I am typically a very perceptive person and consider myself a good judge of character. My first instinct was to dismiss this as trivial and meaningless. The characters, being important to me, made me consider it further because of the messages that the books have given me over the years. I looked. I thought. I researched. After doing so, my gut told me that something wasn't kosher...but it was not Mr. Ali's statements. I found quite a bit based in truth.

I know that an effective leader requires charisma. I know that charisma can be used to alter one's perceptions. However, I did not get that impression from my contact with this man.

Essex: Thanks for the welcome. Glad to be a part of the community.

Ed Hopkins

05-09-2003, 03:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I was not "set off" and none of my "buttons" were pushed. Racism is not a button, it is a global problem. And what Mr. Hopkins said WAS racist. He lumped every single Muslim into one disturbing package with little regard and then actually expressed going out of his way to distrust all of them. Furthemore, he insinuated that all members of Islam were killers.

Such statements are completely prejudice and downright disturbing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I wrote was NOT racist. Racism is being opposed to a person's genes. Like hating all Arabs. Or hating all mutants.

Islam is not a race, it is a belief. And I don't hate the believers, I hate their message. I distrust all muslims the way I distrust all nazis.

If a nazi told you that Hitler and his people were just extremists and it's not fair to judge all nazis by the actions of a few people, you'd laugh in his face. If you decide to stand up and be counted with evil people you will be seen as evil yourself for making that choice.

Islam has the same message as Hitler: We are superior, all other people are unfit to share the land we walk on, Jews are to be exterminated, those who are faithful will be given wealth, luxury and virgins to rape as a reward.

It's the exact same message except nazis were rewarded on earth and muslims are to be rewarded in the afterlife. (Which is why the nazis had no suicide bombers.)

Americans are taugt to be so tolerant and self-loathing. I have learned not to judge people by skin color, sex, nationality or physical ablility. But I will reserve the right to judge people by their beliefs. Not all beliefs are valid, and no one should have to appologize for finding fault with the message of islam.

For the record: I know not all muslims are killers and not all killers are muslims. But for a killer in a movie to also be a muslim is not out of the question. In light of recent events, it seems perfectly reasonable. Those who side with the Osama bin Laden types can expect to have their people portrayed as villains for a long time to come.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-11-2003).]

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 03:29 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
[B] What I wrote was NOT racist. Racism is being opposed to a person's genes. Like hating all Arabs. Or hating all mutants.

Islam is not a race, it is a belief. And I don't hate the believers, I hate their message. I distrust all muslims the way I distrust all nazis.

If a nazi told you that Hitler and his people were just extremists and it's not fair to judge all nazis by the actions of a few people, you'd laugh in his face. If you decide to stand up and be counted with evil people you will be seen as evil yourself for making that choice.

Islam has the same message as Hitler: We are superior, all other people are unfit to share the land we walk on, Jews are to be exterminated, those who are faithful will be given wealth, luxury and virgins to rape as a reward.

It's the exact same message except nazis were rewarded on earth and muslims are too be rewarded in the afterlife. (Which is why the nazis had no suicide bombers.)

Americans are taugt to be so tolerant and self-loathing. I have learned not to judge people by skin color, sex, nationality or physical ablility. But I will reserve the right to judge people by their beliefs. Not all beliefs are valid, and no one should have to appologize for finding fault with the message of islam.

For the record: I know not all muslims are killers and not all killers are muslims. But for a killer in a movie to also be a muslim is not out of the question. In light of recent events, it seems perfectly reasonable. Those who side with the Osama bin Laden types can expect to have their people portrayed as villains for a long time to come.

*****
Major disagreement for me, Ed. It is the fundamentalists within the Muslim community that are violent. Just like fundamentalists in all religions. If we go by your logic there, you could easily put the Nazi label onto all Germans (which is what happened). This has never been fair and should never be tolerated. A great many Muslims subscribe to a peaceful interpretation of Islam and should not have to endure any attacks or prejudice over their beliefs. I do not accept the words of Islam that I have read because they are just like you described. However, in light of recent events an attack such as what is defined by Mr. Ali shows very poor taste and should be condemned. If we, as a nation, go to those maneuvers then we have learned nothing from our own history. All we've proven is that we can be just as mean and unforgiving as the evil people who attacked us. We are better than that.

Darth_zaiyen

05-09-2003, 03:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robbo:
My secondary problem with Najee Ali's position is this: If the biggest problem Muslims have in the world face that a movie villain is equated to them in a subtle way that nobody even recognizes, then they're in pretty good shape. Hell, they're in great shape. If that's the worst form of intolerance hurled at them then they must live in some kind of paradise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they're just doing this for attention more than anything. I realize that Muslims have been looked at differently since 9-11, but I don't see how they could get so upset over this. You don't see Catholics protesting X2 because Nightcrawler was very scary looking, an obvious blow to Catholics everywhere (please note the sarcasm)!

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 03:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Warlock1176:
 Thom,
Do you have a picture? Or point me to one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~alnur/Personal%20Web%20Page_files/ALLAH.jpg
That's a picture of the Arabic symbol for Allah. Now, one theory I've heard is that the ring actually bears the scripted monogram 'WS', in which case it would be easy to confuse this for Allah, especially if the ring is at an angle, which it is in the film. However, I didn't see ANYTHING even closely resembling either Allah or 'WS' on the ring.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by D.K.HOOD:
First off, Thom you've seen the film a lot so I want to ask you does Stryker really appear withing the first 5 minutes? It seemed a little longer than that to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh... Good question. I actually kept tabs on my wristwatch, and there was no sign of him for at least the first ten minutes after the opening of the bamf attack scene in the White House. I stopped looking at the watch after that, but I seem to think it was at least a good 15 or 20 minutes in.

Just think about the scenes leading up to it:
* Bamf Attack
* Logan in the Wilderness
* Museum scene

It was just plain sloppy for Najee to make that statement. It's a clear factual error in his argument.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And second here's some more of Ali's quotes on X2:
"Prejudice and bias are the themes throughout the 'X-Men' movies as well as the comic book series. It's unfortunate, as we continue to live in a post 9-11 world, that Singer would engage in a subtle campaign to breed intolerance and hate. This is what The X-Men always fought against. American Muslims and Jews should work together to end bias and discrimination."

Now if you read between the lines, basically what Ali is saying is that because Singer is Jewish, he deliberately added this ring as an attack on Muslims. I'm no lawyer but Ali's comments sound like grounds for a lawsuit against him for slander.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hadn't yet read that line about Muslims and Jews, but I'd already figured anti-Semeticism among one of the possible motives. Pointing Singer out as a Jew won't make grounds for a slander/libel case, but Najee's statement on the whole could certainly be, and that line in particular could provide a motive. Of course, there are a lot of specifics to proving slander or libel, and a lot of loopholes, and quite frankly, I think Singer will be above making a case out of this. I don't think many people in Hollywood or moviegoers in general are going to take Najee's accusations against Singer very seriously.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Robbo:
My big problem with Najee Ali's position is this. He says, "We feel this is a subtle but obvious attack on Islam."

Think about that word "attack". Bryan Singer (and/or other parties involved with the production of "X2") decide to launch an attack on Islam. So how do they do it? With a blink-and-miss it appearance of a prop that few people even recognize.

Even Thom, who has seen the movie several times and knows the symbol in question failed to recognize it. Even when he was specifically looking for it.

I would say that Singer and company's attack has failed miserably.

In fact, their campaign of intolerance (which runs completely contrary to the overt message of tolerance contained in the movie) would have failed COMPLETELY if it were not for the efforts of Najee Ali.

So, in my mind, Ali has turned the tables on himself and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by giving the evil Bryan Singer's campaign of intolerance a huge boost.

My secondary problem with Najee Ali's position is this: If the biggest problem Muslims have in the world face that a movie villain is equated to them in a subtle way that nobody even recognizes, then they're in pretty good shape. Hell, they're in great shape. If that's the worst form of intolerance hurled at them then they must live in some kind of paradise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said, Robbo. Very well said.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
 What I wrote was NOT racist. Racism is being opposed to a person's genes. Like hating all Arabs. Or hating all mutants.

Islam is not a race, it is a belief. And I don't hate the believers, I hate their message. I distrust all muslims the way I distrust all nazis.

If a nazi told you that Hitler and his people were just extremists and it's not fair to judge all nazis by the actions of a few people, you'd laugh in his face. If you decide to stand up and be counted with evil people you will be seen as evil yourself for making that choice.

Islam has the same message as Hitler: We are superior, all other people are unfit to share the land we walk on, Jews are to be exterminated, those who are faithful will be given wealth, luxury and virgins to rape as a reward.

It's the exact same message except nazis were rewarded on earth and muslims are too be rewarded in the afterlife. (Which is why the nazis had no suicide bombers.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afriad you make some overgeneralizations, Ed. Sure, there are Muslims who feel they must "exterminate the infidels" of Christianity and Judaism. However, there are Christians to this day who feel the need to burn crosses and drive out the "savage negroes" out of the county lines. Does this mean all Christians are this way? Not at all.

Moderate Muslims are at a disadvantage because in most places in the world, they are oppressed by extremist regimes, monarchies, etc. Even among Muslims in free nations, it's hard for moderate Muslims to compete with extremists in expressing their beliefs. After all, it's pretty hard to speak over exploding belt-bombers and falling buildings.

But it's unfair to punish all Muslims for a very, very vocal minority.

Islamic culture was responsible for some of the greatest advances in science, medicine, & quality of life for an entire millenium, while European Christians were wasting away in the feudal systems of midieval times. And what's really ironic? A lot of Islamic progress was lost--and no doubt a lot of today's hatred was begun--when Christians got greedy and zealous and brought on the Crusades.

So case in point: There are some dark spots in all religions, times, and cultures.

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 03:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darth_zaiyen:
I think they're just doing this for attention more than anything. I realize that Muslims have been looked at differently since 9-11, but I don't see how they could get so upset over this. You don't see Catholics protesting X2 because Nightcrawler was very scary looking, an obvious blow to Catholics everywhere (please note the sarcasm)!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but Catholics should be feared.

http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/tongue.gif Just kidding.

D.K.HOOD

05-09-2003, 03:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Darth_zaiyen:
I think they're just doing this for attention more than anything. I realize that Muslims have been looked at differently since 9-11, but I don't see how they could get so upset over this. You don't see Catholics protesting X2 because Nightcrawler was very scary looking, an obvious blow to Catholics everywhere (please note the sarcasm)!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch it Darth or someone's gonna demand an apology and also demand that you remove that last sentence from your post.

Ed Hopkins

05-09-2003, 04:02 PM

Major disagreement for me, Ed. It is the fundamentalists within the Muslim community that are violent. Just like fundamentalists in all religions. If we go by your logic there, you could easily put the Nazi label onto all Germans (which is what happened). This has never been fair and should never be tolerated.

Warlock, you are confusing religion with nationality just like Essex. Of course it is unfair to say all Germans are nazis. The Germans who opposed nazism were among the bravest people on earth.

I know it's the islamic extremists that commit the violence, but it is the average muslim that supports this violence. The muslim world cheered and partied in the streets after 9-11. They name things in honor of suicide bombers. The average Iraqis may not fire on our troops, but they scream, "Go home! Your filthy feet defile our precious land!"

People keep talking about the moderate muslims who are unfairly lumped with an extreme minority. Someone please prove to me that this is so. I think the muslims that hate all Jews and Americans are in the majority. And I see no evidence to the contrary.

D.K.HOOD

05-09-2003, 04:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thom:
That's a picture of the Arabic symbol for Allah. Now, one theory I've heard is that the ring actually bears the scripted monogram 'WS', in which case it would be easy to confuse this for Allah, especially if the ring is at an angle, which it is in the film. However, I didn't see ANYTHING even closely resembling either Allah or 'WS' on the ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I do remember that ring now. Was it an orange/peach color? Maybe I'm thinking of something else but it does seem like a vague memory now that you have described it.

Ed Hopkins

05-09-2003, 04:19 PM

But it's unfair to punish all Muslims for a very, very vocal minority.

"Punish," Thom? Am I punishing muslims by writing my honest feelings about what I have seen in the world? No, I'm doing them a courtesty, by letting them see how badly they are perceived by people. I have taken no violent action to punish them.

Is Brian Singer punishing them by putting a certain ring on Col. Stryker? If so, that's a pretty mild punishment. How much anguish does that really cause?

Does it compare with waking up on a September morning and seeing thousands of people murdered on TV, and then seeing muslims celebrating the murders like their team just won the super bowl?

How about forming a human shield between the street and your 12-year-old students every day for weeks so the sniper will get you instead of them? That's what I call punishment.

Where's my formal apology?

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 04:56 PM

Obviously not "punish" in the sense that you're oppressing them. But you are shutting a lot of people off from your considerations, I think unfairly, and is that something that any of us want? If I'm not mistaken, the fact that extremists have come to such black-and-white conclusions about you and your nationality/ethnicity/etc. is exactly what angers you, isn't it? I just don't see a point in returning the hostile attitude towards those who don't deserve it.

Ed Hopkins

05-09-2003, 05:13 PM

I just don't see a point in returning the hostile attitude towards those who don't deserve it.

Ah, but Najee Ali does deserve my hostility. He is stirring up nothing but trouble. He says not to boycott the movie but to go watch it and see how evil Brian Singer is. He is demanding a Jewish man apologize to all muslims for disrespecting them. And that 20th Century Fox should censor America's favorite movie when it comes out on DVD. This makes me hostile.

Plus, his website has 13 photos of black people and only 1 of white people. What's up with that Najee? A subtle attack on whites? http://www.projectislamichope.org/PhotoGallery.asp

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-09-2003).]

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 05:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
 Ah, but Najee Ali does deserve my hostility. He is stirring up nothing but trouble. He says not to boycott the movie but to go watch it and see how evil Brian Singer is. He is demanding a Jewish man apologize to all muslims for disrespecting them. And that 20th Century Fox should censor America's favorite movie when it comes out on DVD. This makes me hostile.

Plus, his website has 13 photos of black people and only 1 of white people. What's up with that Najee? A subtle attack on whites? http://www.projectislamichope.org/PhotoGallery.asp

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-09-2003).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, have a hostile attitude against him all you want. He probably deserves it. But then again, he probably wants you to be hostile.

My comments were in reference to Islam in general. I just think it's important to differentiate between the good and bad examples of every group, and they're no different.

imported_Thom

05-09-2003, 05:19 PM

Speaking of the 'bad examples'... You know what's really scary? In that picture gallery, the two white people are politicians. Eek!

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 05:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Ah, but Najee Ali does deserve my hostility. He is stirring up nothing but trouble. He says not to boycott the movie but to go watch it and see how evil Brian Singer is. He is demanding a Jewish man apologize to all muslims for disrespecting them. And that 20th Century Fox should censor America's favorite movie when it comes out on DVD. This makes me hostile.[QUOTE]

Ok, now turn the tables. If someone disrespected you, wouldn't you demand an apology also? I sure would. He is well within his rights to demand an apology for something disrespectful portrayed in a film with such broad appeal. The intent behind it is what is still a mystery, as well as if the symbol is really there.

[QUOTE]Plus, his website has 13 photos of black people and only 1 of white people. What's up with that Najee? A subtle attack on whites? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope that was sarcasm.

D.K.HOOD

05-09-2003, 05:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thom:
Speaking of the 'bad examples'... You know what's really scary? In that picture gallery, the two white people are politicians. Eek!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Politicians don't fit into white, black, hispanic, asian, or arab. Their not even human.

Hey I just thought of a politically incorrect mutant joke.

What do you call an evolved mutant lawyer?

A politician!

Ed Hopkins

05-09-2003, 06:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Ed: Plus, his website has 13 photos of black people and only 1 of white people. What's up with that Najee? A subtle attack on whites?

Warlock: I hope that was sarcasm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was so totally sarcasm.

If you knew me you would know that I think that talking about "black people" and "white people" belongs in the same catagory as telling blonde jokes. Genetically speaking, using skin color as a way to group people makes about as much sense as grouping them by food allergies.

On forms I call myself Native American instead of Caucasian since I was born in America and Caucasian is actually a region of Asia.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-11-2003).]

Raven_VLA

05-09-2003, 07:26 PM

I call myself African American even though I'm white because all life originated in Africa, thus I am descended from that area.

jk, of course, but still.

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 09:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
 That was so totally sarcasm.

If you knew me you would know that I think that talking about "black people" and "white people" belongs in the same catagory as telling blonde jokes. Genetically speaking, using skin color as a way to group people makes about as much sense as grouping them by food allergies.

On forms I call myself Native American insted of Caucasian since I was born in America and Caucasian is actually a region of Asia.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ed:
Unfortunately, I do not know you well enough to catch that, though it was a pretty good chance my guess was right...:-)

Also, I just got back from the movie and was specifically looking for the symbol and I couldn't tell anything except a line across it. If you look at the picture Thom posted and shift it clockwise 45 degrees there is a SLIGHT possibility, but it is not likely.

One possibility that is starting to make a little more sense is maybe a Hellfire Club ring? There were a lot of references, maybe?

mallratX2

05-09-2003, 09:22 PM

i just got back from seeing it again and i looked for this and i could make out NOTHING on the ring. in my opinion, some people just look for things to complain about to get attention

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 09:31 PM

Warlock1176

05-09-2003, 11:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mallratX2:
i just got back from seeing it again and i looked for this and i could make out NOTHING on the ring. in my opinion, some people just look for things to complain about to get attention<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you on that one 'rat. The ring was not clear to me either.

Thought I'd share a little something with y'all. I just received an e-mail from Mr. Ali, responding to one I just sent him about an hour ago. I mentioned that I was not able to see the symbol that he had mentioned and he was forthcoming about the situation.

Here are a few comments:

"It was shown in the first 15 minutes of the film. The only reason I noticed it was because when I converted to Islam in prison, I bought the SAME exact ring.

I went back twice to see the movie just to make sure before we made a request from Singer and Fox to at least explain what the ring was. And the more I think about this issue as each day passes, the more people who are unbiased and not Muslim are starting to believe me.

Not because they know what the ring is... but because of Singer and 20th Century Fox's silence on this issue. This is a billion dollar studio, Singer is a millionaire, they could destroy our group's credibility with one press release stating we are wrong in our claims."

*** I don't think it would destroy their credibility to show that they were incorrect. My reasoning being this:

" But now I feel like Fox Mulder, the truth is out there. I just want to get a simple response? If I'M wrong I will apologize publicly to Singer."

*** Sounds like he's being very civil about it. This part starts to get a little bit rhetorical, but also sounds sincere.

" My grandfather is Jewish, I celebrated Passover, and his holidays when I was kid so I'm not anti-Semetic. I brought up the fact that Singer, being Jewish, should know better. I learned about the horrors of the holocaust as a child and i know Singer did too.

He should not use his power to breed intolerance and bias against Muslims. That's what the Jews went through and still do...

We have to work together--American Muslims and Jews for peace. This work can only happen when there is an honest dialogue with people not to attack each other but to learn from each other. That's why I'm open to answering any and all questions from anyone as time allows."

*** And I will say this, he has done so. I've learned a tremendous amount in the last 36 hours and I am thankful for that.

Sorry to take up so much space, but Mr. Ali was getting flamed here pretty good and I hope this will allow a little of his perspective to enter here.

Warlock

...True as steel...

GRIM

05-10-2003, 12:27 AM

i dont doubt the fact that maby stryker wore a ring that had the symbol of allah. but who realy cares? honestly?
ok, so they get a ring to put on his finggure, woops, happens to be the symbol of allah? is this common knowledge? does anybody know what this symbol looks like? more than likley, niether does brian singer or anybody on his crew.

singer, i seaverley doubt is against muslam in any way. HE'S A TREKKIE! thye just dont make racist trekkies.

D.K.HOOD

05-10-2003, 01:23 AM

Anytime someone makes public demands, for an apology and a retraction of a scene, towards a person (like Singer) who has brought joy to millions of people he is going to get flamed pretty hard unless he has proof. He could have kept this under the radar and gathered evidence to prove his point, but no, he claims that Singer and the studio are conspiring together to keep this hush and makes a big stink about it. And we're supposed to believe him?

And the only thing I got out of that e-mail that you posted was that he is the only person who supposedly recognized the ring. And I know the mainstream media doesn't pick up on everything, but when the biggest movie in the country has any kind of controversy that story spreads like wildfire. The fact that this story hasn't spread only confirms my doubts about its legitimacy.

imported_Thom

05-10-2003, 01:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Warlock1176:
Thought I'd share a little something with y'all. I just received an e-mail from Mr. Ali, responding to one I just sent him about an hour ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Warlock, if you e-mail Mr. Ali again, ask him a question for me. Ask him why he feels a lack of response in five days' time must be considered avoidance? Perhaps rather than simply "destroying his group's credibility" with a same-day press release, they're actually taking a little time to investigate the claim before they make a factually based statement. Perhaps? Even if it results in an apology on Fox's behalf, does it matter if that apology is made now or another week from now?

We're talking about one ring in $100 million dollar movie... That's quite a needle in a haystack.

imported_Thom

05-10-2003, 01:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GRIM:
singer, i seaverley doubt is against muslam in any way. HE'S A TREKKIE! thye just dont make racist trekkies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I've heard a Terran make a bad Vulcan joke or two, but it's all in good fun. Heck, we're even letting Klingons in at our poker games now.

najeeali

05-10-2003, 09:49 AM

After reading some of these posts. Its a little frightening. that some people claim to be X-men fans, but still can not learn from the messages of tolerance, and bias,that have always been there comic and movies. My group raised a question with Singer and 20th Century fox. A question that a billion dollar empire, wouldnt,answer. for fear of being exposed. I saw the post of the ring and it says ALLAH in arabic. My suspicions and claims are now confirmed.
You would think after 9-11 Singer would attemp to bring humanity together with his gift, not pull is apart by taking cheap shots at thr Islamic faith..
Najee Ali
najeeali@aol.com

Warlock1176

05-10-2003, 10:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thom:
 Hey Warlock, if you e-mail Mr. Ali again, ask him a question for me. Ask him why he feels a lack of response in five days' time must be considered avoidance? Perhaps rather than simply "destroying his group's credibility" with a same-day press release, they're actually taking a little time to investigate the claim before they make a factually based statement. Perhaps? Even if it results in an apology on Fox's behalf, does it matter if that apology is made now or another week from now?

We're talking about one ring in $100 million dollar movie... That's quite a needle in a haystack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thom -

Yes, I thought about this as well and came to my own realization. While what you say has merit it also begs this question. Why not answer the allegation by saying that you ARE looking into it?

While Fox does not condone such alleged actions in our films, due to the activities surrounding the Opening Weekend of this film we are not in a position to confirm, nor deny the appearance of this symbol in the film. We will work to locate this prop and provide the image to answer the allegations as quickly as possible.

Come on, I'm not working for Fox or any PR group and I could come up with that in all of 20 seconds...you want me to believe that Fox's PR group thinks that silence is better than something along this line? If anything, the continued silence makes it MORE suspect because the issue could be a significant one. Most studios would be crawling all over themselves to deflect it from them, but not Fox? It just doesn't hold water for me.

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 10:37 AM

I saw the post of the ring and it says ALLAH in arabic. My suspicions and claims are now confirmed.

Najee Ali, can you please tell us how WE can see this infamous ring?

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 10:51 AM

You would think after 9-11 Singer would attemp to bring humanity together with his gift, not pull is apart by taking cheap shots at thr Islamic faith

Let's say that everything you claim is true. That Singer chose that ring to identify Stryker as a muslim. What religion should he be? Magneto was shown to be Jewish in the last fim. Did you complain about that? Are you suggesting that Jewish directors should only use Jewish villains in their films? Or are evil Christians okay too?

Face it, you say you're against hate but you promote it every day. No one was angry at this film until you told them to be.

I'll bet if that ring was not there you would be complaining that there was no muslim representation in the film and that Singer was ignoring your people.

BTW one lesson I learned from X-men is that people like Stryker and the original Senator Kelly really do exist. They make careers out of ensuring that there is always trouble and strife in the world so that they will have job security. If people didn't hate muslims you'd be out of a job, so don't pretend you are part of the solution. You are part of the problem

The Xenos

05-10-2003, 11:15 AM

First I want to reply to some of Eds comments that have rather lit up the board. I don't wanna sound like i'm attacking or single you out, but I really gotta reply to some comments you made.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
After 9-11 and the beltway murders, I am as anti-islam as I can be. If X2 had any propaganda I would have noticed, and approved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't let a number of events by a limited number of people in a large group sway your opinion of the whole. Yes, these people took the teachings of Islam and perverted them into these horrors. Actually, I got the impression the beltway thing was just two guys being crazy assholes. They just happened to be Muslim.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Islam has the same message as Hitler: We are superior, all other people are unfit to share the land we walk on, Jews are to be exterminated, those who are faithful will be given wealth, luxury and virgins to rape as a reward. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait...I that would only be some Muslims, the extremists. I also like to point out that there are unfortunately a lot of Christians who have said the same thing. Ever heard of the Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? Heck, event hough they aren't outright killing people, some Christians are damn near as intolerant of non-CHristians as Bin Ladin is against Musilims.

Ed, I understand your disgust, but I think you need to narrow down your aim. There are a number of Muslims that are quite peaceful and open minded. I took a class a while ago that looked at Islam. I learned alot.

I belive people like Bin Laden are extremist Shite Muslims. I belive the Suni sect of Isalm are less strict, kinda like non-Orthodox Judaism is less strict. Then again not all Shite are as extreame as bin laden.

Another thing is that I'm sure you ahve those that are bigoted , but not 'terrorists'. Think of your sterotypical Sothern bigot. Now, not everyone down south is like it, but don't people just asssume that southerners are just close minded uneducated red neck? That's not fair, but there are some extremeists who set the negative sterotype. A girl in once of my classes where we talked about race said how she was Armenian, I assume Christian. Her father is darker skinned. Her parents moved down to Gerogia and after 9/11 they were getting their mailbox shot at and house egged.

Ag. I could go on and on aobut this. About how some Islamic counties are controlled by extrmeists of varying degrees. Than again some argue that some who control this country are religous etremeists. Ag, but that's another can of worms.

Anyway, Ed, and everyone, please be a little open minded. I suggest studying the religion more, and from as an unbiased source either way. The Koran can be perverted by extremists like Bin Laden to promote hate. The Christian Bible can too and it makes me sick when I see people using it to peach hate. Any religion can be spread and practiced with teh swoard. It sickens me when people do this, not matter what religion it is.

I am certain not all Islamic people do not subscribe to thse extreme ways. One problems is some nations, like Iraq, keep their people uneducated and ignorant to other interpretations of Islam and close minded to other cultures. I don't want this to happen in this country. I hope as many people as possible don't just take what they hear on TV or from bars or even from the government. Express your freedoms and please look at these other cutures better. The realtions between Christians and Muslims and America and the Muslim worl are in a dire situation. We need more understanding and openmindedness on both sides. Please, don't assume all people of a religion are a certain way. People can take teachings of a raligion many way, don't jsut look at those who negativly pervert it.

-Xenos

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 11:20 AM

Why not answer the allegation by saying that you ARE looking into it?

Thom, it looks like they did respond. Read this: http://www.nypost.com/seven/05082003/gossip/35210.htm

"Fox reps deny the group's claims. An insider says Fox honchos enhanced the images of the ring and were unable to make out any identifiable symbol."

The Xenos

05-10-2003, 11:35 AM

Ok, now aobut the topic of the ring and HOPE's argument. Now I haven't read the whole thread, butI have heard about this story.

First, I think the ring was one of those unintentional mistake. It was likly just a prop. Plus, I doubt Stryker was Islamic. And I dont think it would even matter in the film. The orignal Stryker in the book was a right-wing Christian preacher. In the movie, though he was as general for the US government, he still seemed like one.

I think the worst thing is that HOPE is nitpicking and missing the great message of the movie. X-Men has always been about the horrors of predjudice and promoted tolerance. Mutants have symolized the opressed, from blacks during the cival rights movment to the gay rights movement and, epecially now, Muslims fighting for understanding in America.

Heck, I was honestly thinking about how we treat Islamic people in this country during this film. It had echos of topics in today's news and I think questions the government's reaction to the Islamic world and the treatment of its Islamic citizens. Some of the movments of the goverment in the film reminded me of what has gone on in the past with Japanese interment camps and also what I fear some would want done to Arabic and Islamic Americans. Magneto is basically a mutant terrorist! Think about it, how different is he from someone like Bin Laden. Prof X is a mutant who teaches peace and is the sane voice between extremists like Magneto and human extremeists. I would think HOPE would embrace such a character and his message in this movie. I think they really dropped the ball and missed the great message in the film.

-Xenos

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 11:49 AM

Xenos, I am a well educated adult. I don't need a lecture about how not all muslims are are evil. I have never said that. If you want to argue with me, argue with my actual positions, not what you think I think. I am the supreme authority on my own thoughts and here they are:

1. Activists stir up more trouble than they stop, because they would put themselves out of business if they actually cured the problems they claim to be trying to cure.

2. There are many evil people in the world and many muslims. There are also many evil-muslims. So making Stryker a muslim (if that is even what happened) is not a crime.

3. Islam is not genetic. You are not born a muslim, you choose to follow that message. Lately that message is one of hate. If that is not the "true" message of islam it is nevertheless the message that non-muslims are receiving. Maybe our media is in the wrong, but the Amercan press has a better record of truth than those of muslim nations. I believe the message of islam is what I see on live TV and read in reputable newspapers. It is the message of bin Laden and Arafat and the countless flag-burners and suicide bombers that we see every day. To defend muslims is to side with those people. I am not racist just because I choose to disagree (strongly) with the message of islam.

4. X2 is a terrific movie. It shows what wonderful things can come from free people living in a great nation like America (and filming in a great nation like Canada). The DVD should have more scenes and not a frame of the original should be cut out. If 20th Century Fox agrees to such censorship as Project HOPE demands, they should be ashamed, and I will not be buying a "ring-free" copy.

Xenos, please feel free to argue any of those points.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-10-2003).]

The Xenos

05-10-2003, 01:15 PM

Ed, first, I'm sorry I I sounded like I was lecturing to you. I may have made it seem too personal. I mixed my own rants and comments on the subject with my reply. Anyway, to reply specifically with teh views you posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
1. Activists stir up more trouble than they stop, because they would put themselves out of business if they actually cured the problems they claim to be trying to cure.
Oh hell yeah. I love it when can complain, but don't do anything or have any solutions. Moreso when they are very biased and call any oppsing arguments lies. I have to deal with teh 'Socialist' club on my campus. They badmouth Bush to no end and bitch bitch bitch and twist and distort the war in Iraq. Yet the way they present it is so ignorant and stupid, they make some stuff Bush says sound inteligent. Argh.

One other complaint is that some groups and leaders fighting for equlaity and tolerance are closeminded and quite biased themselves. At my highschool, I heard Leonard P. Zakim speak duing this 'Week of Awareness' program. He headed the local Anti-Defamation League and has since died of cancer and the local politians in Boston named the new bridge after him. Anyway, I found him to be quite prejudiced himself. ONe thing was when he attacked Rush Limbaugh, he used a number of basically fat jokes I was appaled at. Afterwards, my very liberal art teacher also voiced how she didn't like come comments. He was talking about a "bigot" he met one day. He was homless and Zakim was badmouthing him to no end and even used phases like "you know the type". Hello! This is open minded liberal leadership?!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
2. There are many evil people in the world and many muslims. There are also many evil-muslims. So making Stryker a muslim (if that is even what happened) is not a crime.

I don't think i disagree much here. There are good and bad in all religions. I will say to becareful with it. It sounds too gerneralized. How many 'evil-muslims' are there? I have a problem if I were to just assume that a large number are 'evil'. How 'evil' are they? I know my dad makes a lot of gernalizations and I get pissed when he does. He's been to places in the mideast and has seen the people first hand. He has told me stories of tolerance as well as bigotry by them. I just personally try not to classify a mixed bag into one type. I try not to prejduge. Then again prjuding situtations is what humans do. You see an oncoming truck and you prejudge it's going to hit you so you get out of the way. I guess it's how you prejudge people. I persoanly try not to as much as possible. That's jsut me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

3. Islam is not genetic. You are not born a muslim, you choose to follow that message. Lately that message is one of hate. If that is not the "true" message of islam it is nevertheless the message that non-muslims are receiving. Maybe our media is in the wrong, but the Amercan press has a better record of truth than those of muslim nations. I believe the message of islam is what I see on live TV and read in reputable newspapers. It is the message of bin Laden and Arafat and the countless flag-burners and suicide bombers that we see every day. To defend muslims is to side with those people. I am not racist just because I choose to disagree (strongly) with the message of islam.


Oh yeah, some Muslim countries are downright horrible in their control of the media and people. The Taliban regime was a horrible government, especially in it's treament of women.

At the same time, ask if what these countries show as Islam is the only Islam out there. If you look at our President and his views on Christianity, it's not everyone's. From some stories I've heard I definately agree with the president on some issues. God bless America that I can. I disagee even more so with.. John Ashcroft. is it? The guy taking over the position Janet Reno had, attourney general, right? I always canfuse that position with others. Think that's Ashcroft. That guy is jsut way way too far out in right field in his views of goverment and Christianity for my tastes. Plus there are plenty of 'Christians' who twist the religion and the Bible's teachings into messages of hate. That sickens me. In that same way I am sure many Muslims who thank what happens in some countries and message from some extremist leaders are disgusting and an isult to their more peaceful views of Islam.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

4. X2 is a terrific movie. It shows what wonderful things can come from free people living in a great nation like America (and filming in a great nation like Canada). The DVD should have more scenes and not a frame of the original should be cut out. If 20th Century Fox agrees to such censorship as Project HOPE demands, they should be ashamed, and I will not be buying a "ring-free" copy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I totally agree. Not one frame should be cut. I see it as one person's intrepretation of such an insinigigant detail. They making it signifigant and I think spoiling a woderful film and a wonderful message that was totaly missed.

well, I am kinda rushed because i have to get going, but this a quite interesting topic. Just don't want any flame wars and want everyone to repect each other. Man, i', am kinda glad Bucky, bless his militant flaming liberal heart, isn't on the boards anymore. Hate to see what names and overrations he'd thow out. Anyway, should be itneresting to see how this turns out.

-Xenos

Warlock1176

05-10-2003, 02:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
[B]Xenos, I am a well educated adult. I don't need a lecture about how not all muslims are are evil. I have never said that. If you want to argue with me, argue with my actual positions, not what you think I think. I am the supreme authority on my own thoughts and here they are:

1. Activists stir up more trouble than they stop, because they would put themselves out of business if they actually cured the problems they claim to be trying to cure.[B]

*****
Ed, you make a very good point here. Look at the anti-war activists and their actions. In my eyes, they did more damage than good.

[B]
2. There are many evil people in the world and many muslims. There are also many evil-muslims. So making Stryker a muslim (if that is even what happened) is not a crime.
[B]
*****
I will disagree here only because you seem to not be looking very clearly at it. In the original story, Stryker was Christian and it was a significant part of his character. It supported the story. The movie version Stryker is a military scientist whose religion is never mentioned at all. So there would be no point whatsoever in putting a religious symbol anywhere, right? It's irrelevant. But they did put it there (intentionally or not to still be decided). So if they put religion to his character, why CHANGE it? And why make it the religion that is currently being persecuted most in our society now? (And there is almost no denying THAT comment).

[B]3. Islam is not genetic. You are not born a muslim, you choose to follow that message. Lately that message is one of hate. If that is not the "true" message of islam it is nevertheless the message that non-muslims are receiving. Maybe our media is in the wrong, but the Amercan press has a better record of truth than those of muslim nations. I believe the message of islam is what I see on live TV and read in reputable newspapers. It is the message of bin Laden and Arafat and the countless flag-burners and suicide bombers that we see every day. To defend muslims is to side with those people. I am not racist just because I choose to disagree (strongly) with the message of islam.
[B]
***
I would not judge you as a racist whatsoever, but a person of very strong conviction. But I would also say that it appears to me that you are allowing your emotions to rule you, no offense intended. To think that the American media has even a "good" record of truth is almost ludicrous. Most of what I see in the media is specifically designed to cause dissent or conflict in some way. The Muslims who promote hate are seen consistantly, yet when you hear stories of Muslims who are disgusted by the actions of the extremists, those stories are shown briefly and discarded quickly. I am not a Muslim, but a Christian. As a Christian I am apalled by the actions of the terrorists and terrorist-supporting countries. I am also apalled by the actions and attitudes of a great deal of my own countrymen who seem to have forgotten why this country was founded in the first place.

[B]4. X2 is a terrific movie. It shows what wonderful things can come from free people living in a great nation like America (and filming in a great nation like Canada). The DVD should have more scenes and not a frame of the original should be cut out. If 20th Century Fox agrees to such censorship as Project HOPE demands, they should be ashamed, and I will not be buying a "ring-free" copy.[B]

*****
Here, I have to agree whole-heartedly. The notion of removing this scene is revolting as it is minor in the grand scheme of things. From what I have read of Najee's request. The DEMAND is for an apology, the removal of the scene was only REQUESTED. Look at the quote and see, I'm pretty sure that's accurate. Which shows me that with an apology, he would be open to leaving the scene there.

I was very bothered by this situation when I first heard of it and reacted in a very negative way. When I let myself calm down a little, I started doing the research and trying to find proof of the allegations either way. I have seen the symbol that Thom posted a ways back (and Thom, Najee said that is the symbol he is referring to) but I cannot tell what is on the ring.

I do, however, feel that he has done the right thing in asking for an explanation. Fox stated that they enhanced the image and cannot make anything out. Has anyone seen the enhanced image yet? I'm curious to take a look at it myself.

All Fox has to do is show the prop and answer the question. Then this disappears. Why has that not happened yet?

Curious...

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 02:31 PM

Apology accepted Xenos. When I started this thread I was pretty angry so I can see why people got the wrong impression of me.

Anyway, should be itneresting to see how this turns out.

For me it's over. Unless Najee Ali can show some real evidence, I believe this whole thing was a fabrication. I doubt there will be forthcoming information to support his claims.

Warlock, you are not the first person to say that Stryker is supposed to be a Christian. Why? The person in the graphic novel and the one in the movie are different people. If you think making a villain muslim is evil, then why is making him Christian not just as evil?

To think that the American media has even a "good" record of truth is almost ludicrous. Most of what I see in the media is specifically designed to cause dissent or conflict in some way.

I hope you don't believe this. Our free press is what allows us to have a free country. American journalists put up the Statue of Liberty when our leaders wanted to keep it crated (lest it stir the common rabble), and they took down President Nixon when our leaders wanted to keep everything hush-hush. Imbedded cameramen stood up to American soldiers to show us wounded Iraqi civilians when our leaders would have us see only pictures of toppled statues. Of course they cause dissent and conflict, they show us the ugly truths that politicians try to whitewash. Don't let all the trashy tabloid media blind you to the fact that real American journalism may be the last bastion of integrity in the country. If it falters we are all doomed.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-10-2003).]

klepto

05-10-2003, 02:45 PM

Scene: Helicopter interior

Ed Hopkins (ED): Where are we going? (Turns around to behold me morphing into Mystique, my original form. Hastily gets up from his seat)...Pilot!!!!!

Me as Mystique(after elegantly pouncing on him and gripping his face between my feet): You know, it was people like you that made me afraid to tell others my religion as a child...(I then bitchslap him a few times with just my feet before leaving him to slump unconscious to the floor and joining Toad in the pilot seat)....

Hehe http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/smile.gif!Pls note that this is v.tongue in cheek.Thought that this is a less incendiary way of xpressing my disgust at Hopkins' blatant bigotry without gettin into a useless faux political debate with him when it's obvious that he knows shit about the religion of Islam and is just speaking from his prejudiced view of extreme fundamentalists responsible for the 911 tragedy.Uh oh,juz realized I am starting to flame...anyway, just tot I should also add that I was born a Moslem since my parents were but I've since become an atheist not because I don't believe in Islam but because I dun belive in God as a whole.So I definitely know more about Islam than Hopkins does and Mr Hopkins, do yourself a favor....do more unbiased research of Islam as a religion as it's meant to be based on what the Koran states as that is the one and true source of what Islam is all about as opposed to interpretations made by the various Moslem sects which are of course colored by personal political agendas of the grps. You know kinda like how any fanatics in any religion are wont to do.Dats all I 12 say to u Mr Hopkins cause frankly I find ur ever increasingly blatant bigotry to be sad and deserving of pity rather than a proper and rational intellectual response.'Nuf said.

imported_Thom

05-10-2003, 03:11 PM

Curious...

Good grief! Honestly, I can't believe how this is being made into some sort of conspiracy theory just because Fox hasn't responded yet.

Let's consider a few things here:

1) Who here has directed a hundred-million dollar film before? Anyone, anyone? I'm doubting Mr. Ali has. I have very little doubt that Singer's booked solid this week, making talk show rounds or meetings with the studio or whatnot. To expect him to drop everything and confront this claim is absurd.

2) The studio. Even if Singer DID want to put out a statement, temporary or final, there's a strong possibility that legal powers in Fox are forbidding him. Contrary to what seems to work in gossip circles, silence does not prove guilt in a court of law. Responses that are not carefully chosen, on the other hand, can hold up in said court.

3) Gathering evidence. Principle photography ended months ago (Something like Dec or Jan, right?) and we're talking about one ring from all the props & costumes used, moreover worn by a character who's quite clearly dead and probably won't be returning. And it's not like this is Lord of the Rings... This ring is an extremely minor prop.

4) Credibility of the claim. You know, this is probably what it all comes down to. Fox probably considers this claim so baseless and absurd that they aren't going to bother with it until its on their own time schedule. Case in point:

Does anybody like this movie less because of this supposed "attack" on Islam?

Didn't think so.

5) Najee Ali's credibility. I'm not gonna attempt any character assassination here. But I want to consider one thing at least. Mr. Ali says this ring is identical to one he received in prison after converting to Islam? Well, how many people, honestly, will have been in that same situation--in prison, converting to Islam, receiving a ring that they later happen to see a villian in a movie wearing.

Notice, too, how he's been ambiguous about the significance of the ring. In his original statement, he said it featured the Arabic symbol for Allah. Now, how many people here have gone and watched the movie now, looking for the ring, seeing it, but NOT seeing any symbol for Allah? A few, at least. And now in Mr. Ali's personal correspondence with Warlock, he's changed the tune to "It's something subtle that only Muslims would recognize." What, are Muslims endowed with supervision? "It's identical to a ring I received in prison after converting to Islam." Ok, sure. But he hasn't explained who he got the ring from, what its significance is in Islam conversion, or anything. How do we know it isn't just an ordinary ring that he received to use as a personal symbol of meaning for his conversion?

His story about the ring has just changed here and there with every statement we've read. I find the whole claim less credible now than I did at first, albeit I didn't think much of it to begin with.

imported_Thom

05-10-2003, 03:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by klepto:
...cause frankly I find ur ever increasingly blatant bigotry to be sad and deserving of pity...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Because most people will never know anything beyond what they see with their own two eyes."

Ah, what a valid message this movie brings. Let's never forget to look a little deeper.

D.K.HOOD

05-10-2003, 04:16 PM

I'm surprised at how much the people here keep trying to show Ed Hopkins "the light". He's a lost cause folks, give it up.

Second, someone posted a link to a New York Post article. I guess they would get the scoop on a response since Rupert Murdock owns them and Fox. Besides, the Post isn't much more than gossip trash anyhow. Can we get a more reputable source for anymore news on this story?

MarvelKid18

05-10-2003, 05:43 PM

I think it's crap. I've seen the flick three times, there's no way ANYONE could make out anything on that ring. This is just some whacko trying to get his cause into the light by leeching off the number one movie in the country. Screw this guy.

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 10:33 PM

Thought that this is a less incendiary way of xpressing my disgust at Hopkins' blatant bigotry without gettin into a useless faux political debate with him when it's obvious that he knows shit about the religion of Islam and is just speaking from his prejudiced view of extreme fundamentalists responsible for the 911 tragedy.

klepto, if this was your idea of being nice, I'd hate to see what you think mean is.

BTW
blatant: unpleasantly loud and noisy

bigotry: strong partiality to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and intolerance of those who differ

If you read my posts you'll see that I am opposed to bigotry. While I hate all bigotry, islamic bigotry is today's topic and so I've focused on that. And you are the last person who should describe someone as "unpleasant."

I was born a Moslem since my parents were but I've since become an atheist not because I don't believe in Islam but because I dun belive in God as a whole.

So you're an islamic atheist? That makes about as much sense as saying, "I was born a firefighter since my parents were but I've since become an arsonist not because I don't believe in firefighting but because because I don't believe in water as a whole."

So I definitely know more about Islam than Hopkins does and Mr Hopkins, do yourself a favor....do more unbiased research of Islam as a religion

Let's see what you know and what I know. Assassins were invented by a secret order of muslims who terrorized and killed Christian crusaders and others. They would drug and kidnap a muslim youth, have him wake up in a lush garden surrounded by beautiful women, and tell him that if he commits a murder his god will grant him all of this. The youth (still under the effects of the drug) would then run up to his victim and stab him before anyone else could stop him. This is just one of the many things one learns by researching your religion.

How about this one: When muslims conquered countries, they killed most people who wouldn't convert, but some were allowed to keep their own religions as long as they paid a heavy tax. The muslims got wealthy from taxing Christian and Jews to the breaking point. When the impoverished Christians and Jews gave in and said they would convert the muslim rulers said "No, we need the money."

Dats all I 12 say to u Mr Hopkins cause frankly I find ur ever increasingly blatant bigotry to be sad and deserving of pity rather than a proper and rational intellectual response.'Nuf said.

Oh, I'm not worthy of your "rational intellectual response." So that's why your writing looks like it came from a chimp on crack, you were making a point.

Here's a better idea. Instead of just vomiting your hate-filled, incoherent thoughts onto a message board, why don't you pay a little attention to what you're actually saying. You come across as a moron. And I won't be talked down to by a moron.

P.S. The above is not an attack on all muslim atheists - just you, klepto.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-11-2003).]

Ed Hopkins

05-10-2003, 10:50 PM

I'm surprised at how much the people here keep trying to show Ed Hopkins "the light". He's a lost cause folks, give it up.

What an odd thing to say, D.K.HOOD.

While I agree that folks should give it up, why am I a lost cause again? Oh wait, that's right I'm a white, American, Christian male. I'm the only minority group that is not supposed to be shown any tolerance. And if I disagree with an individual I'm automatically a bigot against their whole group. Since race and gender (and for some reason on this board nationality and religion) are genetic, there is no hope for me.

So come on everybody, write nasty notes to the mean ole WASP. It's fun! And be sure to mention how important kindness and caring and tolerance are to you, just to add that zest of ironic hypocricy.

The Xenos

05-10-2003, 11:25 PM

first,klepto, that was very very blunt. I must say I am annoyed when people start tossing around terms like 'bigot' and 'racist'. At least he didn't use the other n-word, Nazi. Grrr... pisses me off to no end when people, particularly liberals critsizing conservatives, toss that around.

Ed, yes, there have been many many atrocities commited under the Muslim relgion. I'm Greek, you should hear the stories I have hear in my fmailies about what the Turks historically did in Greece. Plus, I will never forget a story I heard about Hitler. It was something like when asked if anyone would notice what we now call 'the Holocaust', Hitler replied, "Who remembers the Armeanians?" Do many know of the death marches and salughter of the Armeanians by the Turks in Turkey at teh beginning of the 1900s? Not really. God bless the jews for having loud mouths and getting their horror stories known. The Armeanians are unfortunately not as large or strong a minority. Plus I belive Turkey still denies it and ou government is annoying comliant with them.

Now, at the same time, i don't hold hostility towards Turks. I certainy do not like the government, though the US is sometimes on good terms with them and has some bases there. Actually, I think that's where my dad worked when he was there. In one of my classes this quarter we tlaked about races and inequality in America. A student from Turkey raised his hand to point out that despite all our problems, we are still one of the best countries in the world. Here is an Arabic American rpaising our country. I feel bad for upstanding Islamic Americans who ahve to deal with the fallout from extremists of their religion. I simply cannot jsut judge and entire religion or culture based on some assholes in power.

Also, I find it troubling when religions are judged based on the violent and hateful people and peroids in its history. I fear Christianity has as much blood on its hands. Not jsut violence either, but intolerance and real bigoty. I have had found msyelf defending Christianity against critics who ahve pointed out the violent and hateful events in its history, particularly of the Catholic Chuch. I'm not Catholic, but I don't feel it is as horrible as many make it out to be. It is a horrible thing to have to defend your peaceful practice of your religion due to the extrmeist acts of others in your religion that may evne be in antoher sect. I can only imagine what some peacful Islamic Americans msut deal with.

Actually, to tie this back into the movie and what I thnk HOPE is missing, think of X-Men. Think of Professor X trying to argue for mutant rights and peacful co-existnace with humans. At the same time you have extremeists like Magneto on one side proclaiming superiority over humans and promoting violent methods to promote it. Plus you have extremist humans like Strker (whatever religion he is) who want to erradicate mutants as well as humans in the US goverment who want to spy on, register, adn even imprison mutants. Now, I know religion is not genetic like the the fictional conition of being a mutant. Being of Arabic decent is and many of the factions are similar anyway. I can't help but see the themes and events in the film being extremely relevent to today's issues and something I would think HOPE would see and like.

Anyway, this is quite an interesting topic and I think is apropriate for an X-Men forum.

-Xenos

The Xenos

05-10-2003, 11:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by najeeali:
After reading some of these posts. Its a little frightening. that some people claim to be X-men fans, but still can not learn from the messages of tolerance, and bias,that have always been there comic and movies. My group raised a question with Singer and 20th Century fox. A question that a billion dollar empire, wouldnt,answer. for fear of being exposed. I saw the post of the ring and it says ALLAH in arabic. My suspicions and claims are now confirmed.
You would think after 9-11 Singer would attemp to bring humanity together with his gift, not pull is apart by taking cheap shots at thr Islamic faith..
Najee Ali
najeeali@aol.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, welcome to the board. I missed your post ealier as I think everyone else did. Now I assume you are actually from Project Islamic H.O.P.E and who you say you are.

It is getting late, but I wanted to reply to your post at least briefly since I found no one else seemed to notice it.

First of all that post ealier was not an image of the ring, but actually an image of what was thought to be the image/symbol in question.

Now I think Fox is not treating this too seriously and doesn't think it is much of an issue. Repectfully, I think you are overreacting. At the same time, Fox should not be so nochallant in clearing this up. This is likley typical big business bs. Honestly, I highly doubt Singer would put something in the film like that. I haven't seen that the ring actually has the symbol on it and was something I completely missed in the film. It just makes no sense someone would purposely put it in there. Maybe someone in props just liked the design. Maybe even someone thought putting the name of God on Striker's ring. Then again I would ahve put a Christian symbol harkening the original charater. Still, that's jsut my speculation, I cannot see the reason for this harmful fuss.

My worry is that this small thing is perceived by a few as an anti-Islamic statement takes away from the whole of the film which has such a good message of acceptance and an overall message which can help promote the rights of Islamic Americans.

-Xenos

klepto

05-11-2003, 01:51 AM

Dear Mr Hopkins,
I find it unfortunate that in your checking of the words 'bigot' and 'blatant' in the dictionary,you neglected to verify your obviously dim understanding of the word 'atheist'.If you had, you would not have embarrassed yourself by labelling anyone a 'Moslem atheist' because that term is what linguists would call an oxymoron. To save you a trip to the dictionary:

oxymoron- figure of speech in which contradictory ideas are closely associated.

So you see, sir, I cannot be a Moslem atheist as in order to be a Moslem anything, I would first have to believe in God or Allah and since I am a self-professed atheist, which by definition means I do not believe in any God, I am neither Moslem nor a member of any religion.
I sincerely hope that your labelling of me as a Moslem atheist and the whole 'son-of-firefighters-but-becomes-arsonist-because-he-hates-water' (I might be mistaken but this is what they term a 'false analogy' in the college studies of my distant past at the Primate Academy) analogy is an intentional attempt at ironic humor,its lameness and patheticness notwithstanding, because if not, you have unfortunately come across as a substance abusing primate yourself.
Please do not misconstrue this post as a direct personal attack on your person. I am merely returning your favor of correcting my linguistic 'errors' in my post by correcting yours.
As for your opinions on Moslems as a whole,let us just both respectfully agree that we would never agree on anything. After all, a patriotic and self-professed American WASP as yourself will certainly agree that we are all entitled to our own opinions and I learnt long ago that it is an exercise in futility to otherwise convince anyone who has obviously strong convictions like yourself.
Thank you for allowing me to post my humble, substance-addled primate thoughts on this board of higher homosapien learning.
Yours 'high'ly,
Klepto

P.S. Channeling Magneto: "You homosapiens and your message boards."(in scornful disgust).Giggle.Hehe http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/smile.gif

imported_Thom

05-11-2003, 02:51 AM

Saw the movie AGAIN.

Sat in the front row, four seats from center, to assure I could get a close-up view of the ring.

Saw the ring again.

Noticed the ring does come into focus for about a fifth of a second.

Was able to see that there was some sort of emblem, symbol, etc. on the ring.

Was STILL not able to make any sort of semblence as to what the symbol was.

D.K.HOOD

05-11-2003, 03:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
 What an odd thing to say, D.K.HOOD.

While I agree that folks should give it up, why am I a lost cause again? Oh wait, that's right I'm a white, American, Christian male. I'm the only minority group that is not supposed to be shown any tolerance. And if I disagree with an individual I'm automatically a bigot against their whole group. Since race and gender (and for some reason on this board nationality and religion) are genetic, there is no hope for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean anything personal by my post. I just recognize that there is nothing anyone can say here to change your point of view. And I am sorry that you have to broadcast that you are a white male Christian to further your arguement about your beliefs. Is there a statistic that says your a minority now? That's news to me.

D.K.HOOD

05-11-2003, 03:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thom:
Saw the movie AGAIN.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG Thom. Take a break man, at least for week...then again, maybe you can do us a favor and take a quick snapshot of the screen the next time you go. I mean, they must remember you at the movie theater by now so you should be able to do whatever you want.

beppo_the_super_chim

05-11-2003, 04:08 AM

I've been reading some of these messages and it seems to me that some of you think muslim and islam are words synonomous with terrorism. this is not the case at all. The countires the west has pissed off enough to provoke a terrorist reaction merely happen to be predominantly muslim.

The Muslim faith does not condone volence of anykind unless, like the bible, it does a U turn halfway through and contradicts nearly everythign said before. Many muslims have spoken out against the terrorist actions and merely because Osama bin Ladin and various other terrorists proclaim they are muslims it does not mean the muslim people recognise him as one of their own. I may call myself christian on forms but in truth i am about as christian as john travolta.

I am sure this ali guy is probably a bit out of line, but from all of you who have had responces from him he seems an ok guy.

I was just worried by how hardly any of you havce spoken against the first post.

a religion didnt destory your towers, people did. bad people, but you cannot say that other people are the same as them merely becasue they worship the same god.

"Was Stryker islamic? Maybe, he was a fanatical killer who liked to brainwash and mutilate people, that fits."

I was horrified by that statement and i cant believe so mny of you werent, that is one of the most racist and horrible things i have seen written on these boards.

anyway i am just off to go and feel sad.

Ed Hopkins

05-11-2003, 12:36 PM

Is there a statistic that says your a minority now?

In a world of 6 billion people:
50% are male
32.4% are Christians
5.3% are Protestants
4.6% are Americans

Protestant American males make up less than 1.3% of the world's population. That's includes all skin colors. I refuse to narrow it further by blackness and whiteness since I find such groupings to be racist.

But yes, D.K., I am a minority, just like everyone else.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-11-2003).]

Ed Hopkins

05-11-2003, 12:48 PM

you neglected to verify your obviously dim understanding of the word 'atheist'.If you had, you would not have embarrassed yourself by labelling anyone a 'Moslem atheist' because that term is what linguists would call an oxymoron.

klepto, were you dropped on your head as a child?

Muslim-atheist is an oxymoron? Wow, what a scoop! If you re-read my post you'll see that was my point, not yours.

I'm sure it makes you feel smarter to pretend my thoughts are yours and vice versa, but it also makes you appear to have lost touch with reality.

beppo_the_super_chim

05-11-2003, 12:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
 I refuse to narrow it further by blackness and whiteness since I find such groupings to be racist.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but you dont mind labelling muslims as 'fanatical killer who liked to brainwash and mutilate people'

Ed Hopkins

05-11-2003, 01:00 PM

beppo_the_super_chimp, your posts are awesome! Almost everything in them is the opposite of reality! I dub thee Bizzaro Poster.

Like this one:
but you dont mind labelling muslims as 'fanatical killer who liked to brainwash and mutilate people'

When what I said was the opposite. I don't mind labeling a fanatical killer who liked to brainwash and mutilate people as a muslim.

Here's my favorite part:
I was just worried by how hardly any of you havce spoken against the first post.

This either implies that you haven't read any other posts than the first one, so you missed the 2 days of flame-broilled posts that have been directed at me. Or you have read them and you are so blood-thirsty you think we need more!

So which are you? Selectively blind or just extra nasty?

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-11-2003).]

beppo_the_super_chim

05-11-2003, 04:18 PM

oh well, what defence can i put up against that, you dont mind labelling a killer a muslim. thats a paradox as the mulin religion forbids killing therefore the moment one kills they cannot call themselves a muslim anymore.

how about a good quote from x men

"just because some birds are irrefutebly black does not mean all birds are black birds"

i was just a bit outraged that in the first 10 posts or so I saw no flamign of your posts apart from essex, so i decided to post not seeing there was a second page. yes i feel stupid but i think you deserved all the flaming you got and more for those comments. and tryign to redeem yourself in our eyes by saying labeling people black and white is racist. thats was a bit silly, we all saw right through it.

in answer to your question, just extra nasty and slightly thick

D.K.HOOD

05-11-2003, 07:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by beppo_the_super_chimp:
i was just a bit outraged that in the first 10 posts or so I saw no flamign of your posts apart from essex,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Essex is Wyatt Earp, he's supposed to lay down the law. jk

But seriously, if everyone here flamed somebody after every stupid, ignorant, and/or offensive post that was made, there would be utter chaos at these boards. And if that's what you want then you might want to go over to ain't-it-cool-news. Otherwise, a couple of flaming posts against one person is plenty good(just so they don't start crying foul play). Unless its John Jones.

Darth_zaiyen

05-11-2003, 09:25 PM

This should put a new spin on things, and hopefully divert this from the political debate it's become. I nabbed this from MovieMistakes.com under the X2 trivia section:

"In the first scene where we see Stryker, where he is fingering the stab mark on the President's desk, he appears to have on a ring with the Hellfire Club's (from the comics) trident symbol."

DrZaius

05-12-2003, 12:35 AM

Hello,

I'm the moderator of this board. it seems like this issue has been discussed to death. Most of us think that if what Najee Ali said about the ring is true, that it was a mistake. There really is nothing else that indicates Stryker as Muslim or a member of any religous faith
We are getting into areas outside of the focus of this board. I encourage politcal debate and discussion. But I think it should be done via e-mail or other places, like the General discussion forum. If any of you want to debate or discuss political topics please feel free to e-mail me. I'm a left wing progressive.
So if any of you have any final thoughts on this topic chime in. But lets keep it on topic. I would chime in with my response to some of the things Ed said. I disagree with many of his view points. But that would be me abusing my power of moderator. So Ed if you want someone to debate you, on these issues that you discussed. E-Mail me. I'm an idealist and an activist but I do my best to listen to what the opposition has to say.Plus you'll have to forgive my lousy typing skills.
Also I don't run a complete dicatorship here. If you guys really want to keep this thread open and you can keep it assocaited with X-Men. I'll let it go. But otherwise, lets hear everyone's final thoughts and then I'll lock this topic down by the end of the week.

Thanks,
Dr.Z

Ed Hopkins

05-12-2003, 04:03 PM

DrZaius,

I'm glad you want to steer this back on topic. That's what I want too. But I hope you will let me answer those last attacks against me first. I promise not to be mean about it.

beppo,

thats a paradox as the mulin religion forbids killing therefore the moment one kills they cannot call themselves a muslim anymore

But they do still call themselves muslims. And many muslim leaders praise them. I've never heard of a terrorist being ex-communicated from islam. So you can have killer-muslims, just like you can have killer-Christians.

and tryign to redeem yourself in our eyes by saying labeling people black and white is racist. thats was a bit silly, we all saw right through it.

First, I have nothing to redeem. I stand by everything I wrote. I just want you to understand my meaning, since I feel a lot of folks are misinterpreting. I know my own heart and mind. You can only know me by what you read here. Since you're obviously getting the wrong idea, I keep trying to clarify myself. I'm not trying to fool you.

Second, recent DNA research has confirmed what I thought all along. There is only one race of humans. There is no white race; there is no black race. Hundreds of thousands of years ago there were other races (like Neanderthals) but they all died out leaving only us. To call people white or black is just wrong, wrong, wrong. The reason we even have racism is because people won't stop pretending there are multiple races.

D.K.HOOD,

if everyone here flamed somebody after every stupid, ignorant, and/or offensive post that was made, there would be utter chaos at these boards

Your heart was in the right place, but "stupid, ignorant, and/or offensive"? I'll let 'offensive' slide because people were offended by my posts, but I'm not stupid by any standard. And while I may be ignorant of some things, I am very knowledgeable on topics that I write about.

Darth_zaiyen,
"In the first scene where we see Stryker, where he is fingering the stab mark on the President's desk, he appears to have on a ring with the Hellfire Club's (from the comics) trident symbol."

You da man! This is what the thread should be about. I hope your info proves true.

[This message has been edited by Ed Hopkins (edited 05-12-2003).]