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View Full Version : For the record... Neo-cons, Jews, Israel and Peace


Space Tycoon
03-09-2006, 07:38 AM
Space, I am not sure if this was asked of you before, and if so I appologize. But from the tone in several of your posts over the years I am just honestly curious:

Do you have a problem with Israel? Or Judaism?
I have no real problem with Judaism or Jews as an aggregate. I have great respect for the accomplishments of the Jewish people.

Israel, on the other hand... yes, I would say have certain issues with that country. There are of course many principled Israelis who seek nothing but justice and coexistence with their Palestinian cousins. I have the highest regard for them. But the Zionist movement should be regarded as just another relgious-ethnic-nationalist cult, and it isn't. In fact, it is estimated that Israel has recieved about 90-105 BILLION dollars in funding since the 1960's. All for a relatively small state with a population of about 7 million people, founded upon dubious biblical claims of a "promised land" for God's "chosen people." Can you think of any other such minority religious group receiving such largesse? Imagine if the Sikhs received similar aid in their struggle for a homeland Of Khalistan in the heart of India.

By and large, I am dislillusioned with the hypocrisy of many of the Israelis and their fellow travellers I have encountered, particularly the pro-Israel elements here in North America, who are always willing to beat the drums for war in the Mideast. Those elements include lobby groups such as the influential American Israeli Political Action Committee (http://www.wrmea.com/html/aipac.htm) who are currently under investigation (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/Jan_Feb_2006/0601012.html)by the FBI for espionage--but who nonetheless have the ear of the White House. (http://www.forward.com/articles/7458)

I can only go by the Israelis and neoconservative Jews that I have known and read about. Increasingly I find them duplicitous, arrogant, myopic. It is clear to me that certain Jews have gained great influence, at times even dominance, in the American media, popular culture, legal and political system. Among other things, it definitely influences our perceptions of the Middle East, as well as Islam in general. I only really started thinking about this a couple of years ago. It occurred to me that nearly every depiction of an Arab in an American movie or television show I had ever seen was as a terrorist, primitive savage, sleazy businessman, ruthless monarch or dictator. Rarely ever depicted as NORMAL PEOPLE. You could chalk that up to bad taste, as I usually did. Or you could see it as part of a much larger agenda. I began to ask, who writes/directs/produces/distributed this media?

It is difficult to express trenchent criticism of Israel without accusations of being a Jew hater. And yet see how easy it is to condemn Arabs, Muslims, Christians, and other groups in the media. Catholics in particular take it on the chin on a regular basis. And always, when the arguments about security, democracy, or human rights fail, the Israelis and their supporters turn to the one sure-fire method of silencing debate about Jewish interests and Israeli policy in general-- the Holocaust.

Filmmakers such as Spielberg have made it their life's mission to ensure we "never forget" about the Holocaust. Well by now everyone surely is aware of the Holocaust. We will "never forget," because we are never allowed to forget! And yet see how easy it is to sweep other, equally atrocious acts under the rug on a fairly regular basis. I could spend hours listing genocides from the 20th century, if I had more time. Why are we not barraged with films and documentaries about Stalin's genocide of the Ukrainian Christians? (http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/forgotten_holocaust.html) Or his ethnic cleansing of the Chechen, Tartars, Volga Germans, and numerous others? For one thing, many of the early Bolshevik leaders were ethnic Jews, including Lazar Kaganovitch and G. Yagoda, who oversaw the Holodymor, Ukraine's holocaust.

I cannot escape the conclusion that too many Jews regularly, shamelessly exploit Western guilt over the Holocaust to further their aims, which is to control the debate in the United States and dominate the Middle East. You can call that what you will. It's not racism, since most Jews by now are about as white as the rest of us. It's not religious intolerance, since Judaism is simply another western religion with it's roots in the Mideast. It's simply an observation of a political development which is fairly obvious to people who bother to look.




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Asonokirk V 2.0
03-09-2006, 03:11 PM
Tycoon, you might want to consider the following.

First of all, there is a great deal of anti-Semitism in the world. There are many Americans who hate Jews, despite what happened during the 1930's and 1940's to Jewish people, which I'm sure we all believe was horrible. The Holocaust drove sympathy for the Jews to have their own homeland immediately following WWII. Prior to that, I don't think there was any great drive to create a Jewish state.

The Jews have been persecuted throughout history, unjustly, and that persecution continues today.

Israel is a democracy, a country that has been successful economically and politically mostly because of the drive of its people. Israelis are more like Americans than are Arabs, so it is natural for the U.S. to have more sympathy and depict them in a more favorable light than we might other groups.

Certain elements within the Moslem world have expressed quite openly their hatred for America and Israel, so it is hard to separate them from more rational elements within Islam. It also didn't hurt that it was Arabs who flew planes into the WTC and Pentagon. That was an act of war, and as far as I'm concerned, America is at war with those factions within Islam who drove that attack, and who continue to use unspeakable methods to push their agenda forward.

The problem continues to be individuals. It is obvious to me that, in general, Palestinians simply don't have the strength of character, or HONOR to simply learn to live with their Jewish neighbors and work hard to better themselves. They'd rather just blame their faults and weaknesses on others, like many people do around the world, than realize that most of their problems are self-generated.

I am no longer willing to accept that somehow the rich countries of the world cause poverty in the third world through exploitation, but instead have come to believe that the most poor and depressed regions of this earth are so becase the people who live there don't have the guts to do anything about it.

It is kind of like New Orleans. Rather than whine about what happened, if the people there really cared they'd pick themselves up and work hard to recover. I'm sick and fucking tired of the whiners who try and blame others for their problems.

Intelligent_Design
03-09-2006, 06:22 PM
I will just say this, Jews have been the most oppressed race on the face of the earth. I applaud them for their advances. That being said I think they are equally to blame for the mideast mess.

Space Tycoon
03-09-2006, 10:57 PM
Okay, once again, for those who didn't quite pick up on it the first time...


MY PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE JEWISH PEOPLE!!!!


It is with certain Jews who have attained positions of prominence in North America, Israel, and worldwide.


I believe that they are pushing themselves toward a position where they may very well be victimized again, as they were during World War II.


I do not want this to happen.




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Intelligent_Design
03-10-2006, 05:32 AM
Okay, once again, for those who didn't quite pick up on it the first time...


MY PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE JEWISH PEOPLE!!!!


It is with certain Jews who have attained positions of prominence in North America, Israel, and worldwide.


I believe that they are pushing themselves toward a position where they may very well be victimized again, as they were during World War II.


I do not want this to happen.




.


Dude, this last 60 or so years have been the only time in their history that have been able to live and worship in relative peace. So I think they know an oppressor when they see one. Or at very least be a little paranoid.

Bark
03-10-2006, 05:36 AM
I'm still trying to figure this out. Newspapers in Denmark post cartoons depicting Mohammad, but they burn U.S. and Israeli flags?

I think it's because the Danish flag was on back-order, and the flag-burning stores only had the old standbys. :smirks: