View Full Version : TStone's Dreams fulfilled!! Neo-Con's starting to jump ship.
Space Tycoon
03-10-2006, 12:09 AM
The times they are a changin'.
Hopefully.
These are the right-wing intellectuals who demanded George Bush invade Iraq. Now they admit they got it wrong. Are you listening, Mr President? (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article350092.ece)
William F. Buckley(!) admits Iraq failure
William Buckley Jnr
INFLUENTIAL CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST AND TV PUNDIT
'One can't doubt the objective in Iraq has failed ... Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an army of 130,000 Americans. Different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgement of defeat.'
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TrixieB
03-10-2006, 02:32 AM
Wow... for Tstsone this will be almost as good as an international law requiring all young women to be topless in public at all times!!
Daltons Chin Dimple
03-10-2006, 04:24 AM
The trouble is that right now there really is a situation which, in the very near future, may well require a coalition to go in hard and crack some skulls. Iran !
However because of Iraq, both the will and the means may be lacking when the time comes.
Bokchoi Cowboy
03-10-2006, 05:26 AM
The trouble is that right now there really is a situation which, in the very near future, may well require a coalition to go in hard and crack some skulls. Iran !
However because of Iraq, both the will and the means may be lacking when the time comes.
It was said all along by the international community that if the Iraq confrontations were done under the UN, then everyone would be fine with it. Since the Iran situation is under the scrutiny of the UN, and the UN itself has suggested possible sanctions and more against Iran if it does not comply with UN wishes, there could possibly be enough "will and means" if the time ever came to "go in hard and crack some skulls."
Our problem is we stuck around. That's not our strength. We go in and break the regime, and then leave. Let anarchy reign. If the U.N. wants to help set up a government, then fine. Good for them. If a government or regime is formed that we don't like, we go in and break them too. Then we leave. This "Pottery Barn Doctrine" of "you break it, you buy it," is BS. I call mine the "Hammer Doctrine." The world hates us anyway. That's not changing anytime soon. Besides, my doctrine has the better name. :D
neglet
03-10-2006, 06:04 AM
Wow... for Tstsone this will be almost as good as an international law requiring all young women to be topless in public at all times!!
All young women? Tstone isn't that picky, (http://64.34.170.134/Cinescape/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB142&Number=108687&Forum=All_Forums&Words=dugs&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=100532&Search=true#Post108687) bless his little boobie-obsessed heart.
tstone
03-10-2006, 07:28 AM
Hm...
I've been saying all along that this venture was a fool's errand. And I'm hoping that the right lessons will be learned from this.
1. The limits of military power.
2. The necessity of when using military power, not attempting to do it on the cheap.
3. Being honest with yourselves and the American public about the information you truly have and the reasons why you are doing something.
4. Being truly connected with reality, rather than flights of superheroic fantasy.
Buckley is one of the intellectual greats and honest thinkers of the conservative movement. Not a blind flagwaver of his "faction".
Trix, on planet Stone, less bombs and bullets, more boobs.
And Negs, you flatter an old soldier and broadcaster with that gem from the past. I thought the old Cinescape was lost in the ether? How did you get that?
:hugs:
:D
neglet
03-10-2006, 07:50 AM
And Negs, you flatter an old soldier and broadcaster with that gem from the past. I thought the old Cinescape was lost in the ether? How did you get that?
I'm just too lazy to delete my old bookmark. It's still there (http://messageboard.cinescape.com/cinescape/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=), and still searchable. Whether that's a good or bad thing is open to debate.:smirk:
sickness
03-10-2006, 07:53 AM
I miss the visual style to the old board. I didn't realize that before but I do. I like the new one but the old one is like an old blanket that you just can get rid of because it's great at warming you up on a cold, rainy day despite the holes in it.
Our problem is we stuck around. That's not our strength. We go in and break the regime, and then leave. Let anarchy reign. If the U.N. wants to help set up a government, then fine. Good for them. If a government or regime is formed that we don't like, we go in and break them too. Then we leave. This "Pottery Barn Doctrine" of "you break it, you buy it," is BS. I call mine the "Hammer Doctrine." The world hates us anyway. That's not changing anytime soon. Besides, my doctrine has the better name. :D
I like the name better, too. Our real strength is going in after other countries have been at war for a few years, then finishing the job for them. WWI and WWII are good examples of that. The wars we start, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I, never get resolved. We get a lot more support from other countries when we are cleaning up their messes, than when we create our own.
Emperor Norton
03-10-2006, 08:21 AM
I like the name better, too. Our real strength is going in after other countries have been at war for a few years, then finishing the job for them. WWI and WWII are good examples of that. The wars we start, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I, never get resolved. We get a lot more support from other countries when we are cleaning up their messes, than when we create our own.
We didn't start Vietnam. We were "cleaning up" (I use that term loosely) a French mess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War).
Space Tycoon
03-10-2006, 10:49 AM
The trouble is that right now there really is a situation which, in the very near future, may well require a coalition to go in hard and crack some skulls. Iran !
I'm afraid I can't think of a single good reason for invading or otherwise attacking Iran. I've heard all the arguments, and they sound suspiciously like the reasons for going into Iraq.
That fact that so many Democrats are willing to get onboard is disturbing to me, especially since there's a good chance they may very well take the White House in 2008.
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Space Tycoon
03-10-2006, 10:57 AM
I'm just too lazy to delete my old bookmark. It's still there (http://messageboard.cinescape.com/cinescape/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=), and still searchable. Whether that's a good or bad thing is open to debate.:smirk:
I was the last person ever to post (http://64.34.170.134/Cinescape/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=UBB142&Number=234094&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&vc=1) in the old Cinescape Messageboards. Me!
:D
.
We didn't start Vietnam. We were "cleaning up" (I use that term loosely) a French mess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War).
You're right. Partly. France was giving up. We just couldn't let it go. This is quoted from the same page you linked.
The Geneva Conference on July 21, 1954 recognized the 17th parallel as a "provisional military demarcation line" temporarily dividing the country into two states, Communist North Vietnam and pro-Western South Vietnam.
The Geneva Accords promised elections in 1956 to determine a national government for a united Vietnam. However only France and the North Vietnamese government (DRV) signed the document. The U.S. and the government in Saigon refused to abide by the agreement, believing that the election would result in an easy victory for Ho Chi Minh. Emperor Bao Dai from his home in France appointed Ngo Dinh Diem as Prime Minister of South Vietnam. With American support, in 1955 Diem used a referendum to remove the former Emperor and declare himself the president of the Republic of Vietnam.
Thus the competition for the whole of Vietnam began; Diem's military was unable to prevail in the civil war which escalated, as a result of international intervention, into the Vietnam War, which is also referred to as the Second Indochina War.
I was the last person ever to post (http://64.34.170.134/Cinescape/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=UBB142&Number=234094&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&vc=1) in the old Cinescape Messageboards. Me!
:D
.
Also, remember who the first person to post in the new Lounge was. (http://messageboard.cinescape.com/cinescape/forums/showthread.php?t=5&highlight=future) :D
American
03-11-2006, 06:17 AM
I'm afraid I can't think of a single good reason for invading or otherwise attacking Iran. I've heard all the arguments, and they sound suspiciously like the reasons for going into Iraq.
A few well-placed bombs is all we need for Iran.
Ahmadinejad's house and office.
The Mullah Council
Nuke sites
military barracks thrown in for chuckles
The rest we can leave to the people. The CIA could fund some resistance movements against any further Theocratic nuts
Intelligent_Design
03-11-2006, 07:59 AM
A few well-placed bombs is all we need for Iran.
Ahmadinejad's house and office.
The Mullah Council
Nuke sites
military barracks thrown in for chuckles
hey that sounds like what we should have done in Iraq....Hindsight I guess!!!
Space Tycoon
03-11-2006, 08:25 AM
Of course, we would again be unilaterally attacking a country that had not attacked the sovereignty of the United States; on behalf of another country; which would doubtless cause many civilian casualties.
And, incidentally, unleash further hell in Southern Iraq, and the Israel/Lebanon border, and probably Palestine as well. Leading to counter-reprisals by US-UK-Israeli forces, culiminating in a general Mideast War from which would be almost impossible to extricate with any honour or benefit to the US or it's interests.
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tstone
03-12-2006, 03:21 AM
A few well-placed bombs is all we need for Iran.
Ahmadinejad's house and office.
The Mullah Council
Nuke sites
military barracks thrown in for chuckles
The rest we can leave to the people. The CIA could fund some resistance movements against any further Theocratic nuts
The sun shines all day long on Planet Simple.
Kaeos
03-12-2006, 06:53 AM
The CIA could fund some resistance movements against any further Theocratic nuts
Funny, that's exactly how Bin Laden came into power. Great idea!
Adopt my philosophy, and the whole world will be pleading, "Please HAMMER, don't hurt 'em!"
:lol:
American
03-12-2006, 11:11 AM
Of course, we would again be unilaterally attacking a country that had not attacked the sovereignty of the United States;
Who cares? We're the world's only superpower. We can do whatever we want, whenever we want. If that means to eradicate the theocratic assholes from Iran's goverment or carpetbomb Damascus for allowing foreign terrorist to cross into Iraq, then so be it.
A heavy hand goes along way.
The masses may scream and whine...so what? It's not like we haven't heard it before. And if they start causing too much trouble, they'll get bitch-slapped.
And, incidentally, unleash further hell in Southern Iraq
Which is probably why A-10 Warthogs were dispatched to Iraq. To quell any whining from the Iraqi population
Intelligent_Design
03-12-2006, 11:31 AM
Who cares? We're the world's only superpower. We can do whatever we want, whenever we want. If that means to eradicate the theocratic assholes from Iran's goverment or carpetbomb Damascus for allowing foreign terrorist to cross into Iraq, then so be it.
A heavy hand goes along way.
The masses may scream and whine...so what? It's not like we haven't heard it before. And if they start causing too much trouble, they'll get bitch-slapped.
Which is probably why A-10 Warthogs were dispatched to Iraq. To quell any whining from the Iraqi population
HAHA!!! dude you need to take this comedy act on the road. "American Unleashed" !!!!! :]
DaForce
03-12-2006, 11:45 AM
Who cares? We're the world's only superpower. We can do whatever we want, whenever we want. If that means to eradicate the theocratic assholes from Iran's goverment or carpetbomb Damascus for allowing foreign terrorist to cross into Iraq, then so be it.
A heavy hand goes along way.
The masses may scream and whine...so what? It's not like we haven't heard it before. And if they start causing too much trouble, they'll get bitch-slapped.
Which is probably why A-10 Warthogs were dispatched to Iraq. To quell any whining from the Iraqi population
Wow, you should be the new ambassdor for the U.S.
"If you don't like us, we'll bomb you into submission and then force you into concentration camps! Seig he...oops!"
Bill_the_Pony
03-12-2006, 12:02 PM
FUUUCK YEAH! :angry
http://www.pabst.com/images/beerimages/pbr_logo.jpg
tstone
03-13-2006, 08:45 AM
Who cares? We're the world's only superpower. We can do whatever we want, whenever we want. If that means to eradicate the theocratic assholes from Iran's goverment or carpetbomb Damascus for allowing foreign terrorist to cross into Iraq, then so be it.
A heavy hand goes along way.
The masses may scream and whine...so what? It's not like we haven't heard it before. And if they start causing too much trouble, they'll get bitch-slapped.
Which is probably why A-10 Warthogs were dispatched to Iraq. To quell any whining from the Iraqi population
Hm...this is the line the NeoCons were believing when going into Iraq.
Now?
Please, American, having the ability to blow the crap out of everything and anything you please doesn't mean a. That it's the right thing to do and b. that will get you anything and everything you want.
If anything, current events should have cured all but the most stubborn or stupid of that notion.
ladymurasaki
03-14-2006, 04:14 PM
Re Iran: It'll be interesting to see what the Israelis do.
Re: neocons, I read yesterday that now Alexander Haig is saying this has been "another Viet Nam." Andrew Sullivan is increasingly negative on the whole venture too.
Re history: For the first 150 years of American History, you couldn't get this country to go to war. It seems to be much easier now. I don't know what that means.
Thank god you guys aren't afraid of political debate and discussion on these boards.
Intelligent_Design
03-14-2006, 04:59 PM
Thank god you guys aren't afraid of political debate and discussion on these boards.
We seem to have run the really hardcore Neocons out.Sadly while the debates often got very heated, it was still a debate with two opposite sides. Not so much anymore.
Space Tycoon
03-14-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm all for bringing the neo's back. The political debates have gotten pretty lacklustre here lately.
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ladymurasaki
03-14-2006, 05:27 PM
We seem to have run the really hardcore Neocons out.Sadly while the debates often got very heated, it was still a debate with two opposite sides. Not so much anymore.
I see. I wasn't here when the Neocons were. Debate would certainly be more lively with them present!
I was just glad to see any kind of political debate at all.
Anyone else have any opinions as to what Israel with do in re Iran?
Intelligent_Design
03-14-2006, 05:33 PM
I'm all for bringing the neo's back. The political debates have gotten pretty lacklustre here lately.
.
I can take a Neo position....well lets see um.....Ok I got it......The Iraq war was ok because Clinton lied about a blowjob......Am I doing good so far????? Ok I'm holding back laughter as I typed that.......As for me taking up a real tried and true middle america Neocon position.... I got nothing......:dunno: Or is that a leftist position.....:rolleyes:
Space Tycoon
03-14-2006, 05:51 PM
I think I'm morphing into a moderate paleoconservative. I would agree that a President lying to the American people, for any reason, is inexcusable. Clinton reduced himself, and his nation by his moral cowardice.
The neocons would agree with this statement. What they wouldn't like is the statement that follows:
As much as Clinton lowered the bar, Bush has lowered it waaaay further.
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tstone
03-15-2006, 10:16 AM
He lied about a BLOWJOB! About something in his personal life that wasn't a matter of law. The people questioning him had no right to home in on that. And that was really weak of them to impeach him over it. ****ing weak. I'm not a Clinton fan, but the a-holes who did that? Weak.
Now, as to the current mild debate climate, I'm all for rowdy debate. But here's the thing. Whenever it happens, people start whining and complaining about how rough it is, asking everyone to calm down, and bitching about the "over the top" atmosphere.
Make up your mind, people. What do you want?
This isn't a totally pussified board like the Highlander board became, but the complaints over the passionate debate here are ludicrous.
Mind you, I will admit some of the debate did get over the top. When you start questioning someone's patriotism and whatnot, you've gone too far. When you start asking about the state of someone's soul (that was my bad), you've probably gone to far, too.
But better that envelope pushed than the milktoast, limp wristed plain jane vanilla shiite a board can become when folks are worried about offending people.
ladymurasaki
03-15-2006, 01:00 PM
Make up your mind, people. What do you want?
To be right? All the time? And acknowledged as such?
Just kidding.
Space Tycoon
03-15-2006, 07:55 PM
Now, as to the current mild debate climate, I'm all for rowdy debate. But here's the thing. Whenever it happens, people start whining and complaining about how rough it is, asking everyone to calm down, and bitching about the "over the top" atmosphere.
Not me. Well, not much. I had a debate/argument with my dad this evening about whether or not al-Jazeera should be able to broadcast in English here in the Western Hemisphere. I say, why not? Get all that stuff out on the open.
Mind you, I will admit some of the debate did get over the top. When you start questioning someone's patriotism and whatnot, you've gone too far. When you start asking about the state of someone's soul (that was my bad), you've probably gone to far, too. Soul should be off limits. Ditto for R & B. Hip Hop on the other hand... now that I think should be open for debate.
But better that envelope pushed than the milktoast, limp wristed plain jane vanilla shiite a board can become when folks are worried about offending people.
We haven't gotten to that point yet. Still... I'm amazed nobody responded to the Milosevic thread. I'm guessing we don't have a large contingent of Serbs, Croats or Albanians here...:rolleyes:
.
Intelligent_Design
03-15-2006, 08:40 PM
But better that envelope pushed than the milktoast, limp wristed plain jane vanilla shiite a board can become when folks are worried about offending people.
Vanilla Shiite?Lets not bring John Walker's name into to this.
tstone
03-16-2006, 09:06 AM
To be right? All the time? And acknowledged as such?
Just kidding.
Ah yes, but when you occupy such a lofty post, you are just asking to be deposed. Is it really worth it?
:)
tstone
03-16-2006, 09:07 AM
You can bag on modern pop-country, too. But the old school? Leave it alone. Especially Johnny Cash. The man is a god.
Not me. Well, not much. I had a debate/argument with my dad this evening about whether or not al-Jazeera should be able to broadcast in English here in the Western Hemisphere. I say, why not? Get all that stuff out on the open.
Soul should be off limits. Ditto for R & B. Hip Hop on the other hand... now that I think should be open for debate.
We haven't gotten to that point yet. Still... I'm amazed nobody responded to the Milosevic thread. I'm guessing we don't have a large contingent of Serbs, Croats or Albanians here...:rolleyes:
.
tstone
03-16-2006, 09:08 AM
Vanilla Shiite?Lets not bring John Walker's name into to this.
I was thinking Rob Van Winkle, whose house I missed rolling by just a thread.
:D
Ah yes, but when you occupy such a lofty post, you are just asking to be deposed. Is it really worth it?
:)
Why, yes. Yes, it is.
sickness
03-16-2006, 09:30 AM
You can bag on modern pop-country, too. But the old school? Leave it alone. Especially Johnny Cash. The man is a god.
I have a shrine to Johnny, Willy, Waylon and Kris in my apartment. Okay, I don't but I do enjoy their music over anything else called country.
I lied. I do have that shrine. :lol: Just kidding.
tstone
03-16-2006, 09:51 AM
I have a shrine to Johnny, Willy, Waylon and Kris in my apartment. Okay, I don't but I do enjoy their music over anything else called country.
I lied. I do have that shrine. :lol: Just kidding.
The Highwaymen, my friend. EXCELLENT picks. It just doesn't get better.
:)
sickness
03-16-2006, 10:13 AM
Those are four guys that belong in the R&R HOF AND the Country HOF. Their music is that artistic and sweeping in its nature. I've been convinced for a long time that Johnny Cash (a blues man who grew up country) really was responsible for the emergence of metal with songs like Sunday Morning Coming Down and The Man In Black. His songs were a little bit heavier musically than most of the music at the time and a lot heavier lyrically than ANYTHING going on at the time, both hallmarks of music from the likes of Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Metallica, etc.
Seriously, I think they'll be remembered as some of the great composers of their time next to the likes of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.
tstone
03-16-2006, 10:28 AM
Indeed, bow your heads, you are in the presence of GREATNESS.
Those are four guys that belong in the R&R HOF AND the Country HOF. Their music is that artistic and sweeping in its nature. I've been convinced for a long time that Johnny Cash (a blues man who grew up country) really was responsible for the emergence of metal with songs like Sunday Morning Coming Down and The Man In Black. His songs were a little bit heavier musically than most of the music at the time and a lot heavier lyrically than ANYTHING going on at the time, both hallmarks of music from the likes of Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Metallica, etc.
Seriously, I think they'll be remembered as some of the great composers of their time next to the likes of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.
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