Atheist conversion on ebay

[Senormac]

This was a great article IMO.....What a novel idea. And the winning bidder has a pretty good head on his shoulders too....LOL. I appreciate the candidness of the article because so many churchs today are messed up......and it has always been my position that Christ Jesus is not messed up.....just alot of people who gather in his name are.

http://www.off-the-map.org/idealab/articles/wsj_ebay_atheist.html

[sickness]

I hate to say it but, coming from you, Senor, I expected this article to be very opinionated and pro-Christian but it was a very good, level-headed take on the story and both Mr. Henderson and Mr. Mehta are very even-keeled guys. I like Henderson's outlook on religion and Mehta's willingness to take a look from the inside.

Thanks for the article!

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

I've never quite understood what an atheist is, actually. I can understand rejecting all organized religions as self-serving and semi-delusional, but I can't ignore the messages that Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Buddah and others have given us over the millenia. The wisdom inherent in the words of these men cannot be ignored.

And that these men referred to a higher power cannot be denied, either. The form of that higher power varies, but that there is one seems to be a universal belief. Science itself acknowledges the existence of concepts outside of our ability to comprehend as factors which explain why the universe exists.

To deny outright that there isn't anything greater than what we can quantify as possibly existing seems foolish to me.

[sickness]

To insist that there is a higher power simply because there are things we don't understand or are incapable of comprehending is what seems foolish to an atheist. Same coin, opposite side.

The wisdom of the men you named is great but that does not necessarily mean that their reference to a higher power is correct. Mankind has always sought to understand. When we can't and discovery is beyond our capability, a higher power has often come into play. It seems very foolish to believe in a higher power simply because it was done that way in the past. Don't get me wrong here, though. I'm not an atheist. I'm a realistic, optimistic agnostic. I was born Catholic, though. Basically, I went through years and years of philosophising and various states of conclusion (atheist, neutral agnostic, the great cop-out of spiritual-not-religious, etc.). Now I'm of the mind that I really, really, really would like for there to be a god and afterlife and all that but we just don't know and can't know. It's really disturbing to consider that this might be it but that's a possibility. If it is, the upside is that we won't know it.

In short, I think anyone who wouldn't consider that religions and their core texts might be wrong or an exaggeration or misinterpretation has done as little thinking as someone who wouldn't consider that there might be something right or truthful in them. That's why I have great respect for both Mr. Henderson and Mr. Mehta here. They're coming from opposite perspectives but are willing to open their minds to the opposing point of view.

[Senormac]

And I know you have great respect for me too sickness.......:D :D :D

[sickness]

Absolutely, Senor. :)

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

To insist that there is a higher power simply because there are things we don't understand or are incapable of comprehending is what seems foolish to an atheist. Same coin, opposite side.

The wisdom of the men you named is great but that does not necessarily mean that their reference to a higher power is correct. Mankind has always sought to understand. When we can't and discovery is beyond our capability, a higher power has often come into play. It seems very foolish to believe in a higher power simply because it was done that way in the past. Don't get me wrong here, though. I'm not an atheist. I'm a realistic, optimistic agnostic. I was born Catholic, though. Basically, I went through years and years of philosophising and various states of conclusion (atheist, neutral agnostic, the great cop-out of spiritual-not-religious, etc.). Now I'm of the mind that I really, really, really would like for there to be a god and afterlife and all that but we just don't know and can't know. It's really disturbing to consider that this might be it but that's a possibility. If it is, the upside is that we won't know it.

In short, I think anyone who wouldn't consider that religions and their core texts might be wrong or an exaggeration or misinterpretation has done as little thinking as someone who wouldn't consider that there might be something right or truthful in them. That's why I have great respect for both Mr. Henderson and Mr. Mehta here. They're coming from opposite perspectives but are willing to open their minds to the opposing point of view.

Maybe it is that atheists think what is meant by a "higher power" is some conscious entity directing traffic so to speak. That isn't what I refer to as a "higher power" at all. What I mean is some force beyond our ability to understand based on our present knowledge. That doesn't mean that force has some kind of conscious intent. I am NOT anthropomorphizing anything, which is what I suspect is the root cause of misunderstanding by atheists.

That there is much beyond which we can presently understand seems an axiom to me, and I can only label that which is beyond comprehension as a "higher power," for lack of any better terminology.

[Senormac]

Jesus is "the higher power".......He "is" God.....accept or reject it.....it will never change.

[MPG]

Maybe it is that atheists think what is meant by a "higher power" is some conscious entity directing traffic so to speak. That isn't what I refer to as a "higher power" at all. What I mean is some force beyond our ability to understand based on our present knowledge. That doesn't mean that force has some kind of conscious intent.Then if that "higher power" is not a conscious entity, what is the connection between that force and "the messages that Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Buddah and others have given us over the millenia"? If you're not believing in a "higher power" as a conscious entity, then you're not believing in the message of Jesus or Mohammed, which according to your earlier message "cannot be ignored".
I am NOT anthropomorphizing anything, which is what I suspect is the root cause of misunderstanding by atheists.I don't think that there is a general assumption among atheists that says "Asonokirk believes in an antropomorphic conscious entity." so I wouldn't say there is a misunderstanding among atheists on that point. :wink: :D SCNR.

Other than that, I don't see where the confusion comes from. The word "atheist" contains the Greek word for "god" (theos), so an atheist is simply a person who does not believe in god(s), a god being a conscious entity.
That there is much beyond which we can presently understand seems an axiom to me, and I can only label that which is beyond comprehension as a "higher power," for lack of any better terminology.
I'd think that there would be much better terminology for that (such as "things we don't understand yet"), since most people apply the term "higher power" to a conscious entity.