Dolph "I CAN'T ACT"Lundgren

[Soccerdude]

i hate his potrayal of the man we all know(or,at least,thought weknew before this shit)as Frank castle.

i hate the whole movie.and i only read 86 punisher comics.

[MALCOLMXERXES]

SOCCERDUDE,

I'm sorry you feel that way, but he worked for me, despite lacking the skull on his chest & various Plot deviations from the book.

------------------
"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"
...And these weapons make me VERY f*ck*n' Responsible!

MALCOLM XERXES
Stuntman/Actor
MALCOLMXERXES.COM (http://www.a1000m.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=65)
The MX-Files (http://www.geocities.com/malcolmxerxes/index.html)

[themanwithoutfear]

yup dolph was great as frank.
i thought the punisher film was pretty good. it's alot more like the modern marvel films.

[MALCOLMXERXES]

TMWF,

I grok the fullness of the totality!

I doubt that BLADE(TM)/BLADE II(TM) would have been permitted to fly if not for the fact that THE PUNISHER(TM) let studios know that Comics audiences could handle realistic, adult motivations & behaviour from fictional characters.

------------------
"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"
...And these weapons make me VERY f*ck*n' Responsible!

MALCOLM XERXES
Stuntman/Actor
MALCOLMXERXES.COM (http://www.a1000m.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=65)
The MX-Files (http://www.geocities.com/malcolmxerxes/index.html)

[Andron]

Dolph looked like frank, but couldn't act. Just like his He-man part!

[localhero]

maybe if Dolph Lundgren was a mech...

...oops i thought i was killer tofu http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/wink.gif



------------------
Cheers,
Local
aka Hunk McCoy "Is it true what they say about guys with big feet? Yes they do need big shoes."

"So let me fill my children's hearts, With heroes tales and hope it starts, A fire in them so deeds are done, With no vain sighs for moments gone."

[MALCOLMXERXES]

ANDRON,

MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN rocked the house as HE-MAN! He resembled the character, fought well, & was obviously having a good time in the role.

I admit to being displeased about the casting of the film when first I read of it in MARVEL AGE(TM) magazine, but once I saw the pix of MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN in costume, I was ready to be convinced.

If he had been permitted to wear the skull emblazoned on his chest, however, I would have been an immediate convert. That said, the leatherwork on the costumes in this film is immaculate!

It was not until my 9th consecutive viewing of the film on VHS that I could enjoy the film for what it is, letting go of my various biases, & was finally able to recognise the various subtleties in Design & Style.

Exempli gratia:

1) MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN'S face had been shaven & made up to resemble a deathshead, just as on the cover of THE PUNISHER(TM) #75;

2) The Minimalist acting of MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN was reminiscent of MR. DAVID CARRADINE in KUNG FU(TM);

3) MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN'S arid delivery was so subtle & my prejudice so great that I had been missing various comedic lines of dialogue for what they were, ignorant of the fact that this performance paved the way for MESSRS. GARTH ENNIS & STEVE DILLON in their excellent work, to date;

4) THE PUNISHER'S(TM) living in a sewer was a visual metaphor of his alienation from Society;

5) Subtle Comics continuity touches such as THE PUNISHER'S(TM) immense dislike of Ninjas;

6) The unusual ordnance he was packing - such as the THOMPSON SUBMACHINE GUN(TM) - which bespoke his practise of gathering up the fallen weaponry of the gangsters he has killed;

7) The fact that he starts off clean, but becomes progressively dirtier throughout the film;

8) THE PUNISHER(TM) takes several savage beatings from his enemies, including a tiny blonde female;

9) His pragmatism about dispatching lethal women as it becomes necessary to do so;

10) SHAKE'S tendency to speak in verse;

The scene in the alley when the camera pans up from THE PUNISHER'S(TM) boots to reveal his displeased physiognomy is Pure Cinematic Magic, & would have been Perfection Itself, had MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN been permitted by NEW WORLD PICTURES (AUSTRALIA) & MR. "SMILIN'" STAN "THE MAN" LEE to wear the skull on his chest!

However, I don't think that THE PUNISHER(TM) has been "considered a hero" since FRANK CASTLE went A.W.O.L. If anything, the man is an Antihero.

Also, the fact of his children being murdered does not lessen that impact, nor does it make the Moral, Legal & Ethical choices that we are forced to make when we encounter him in person any lesser; if anything, it makes those choices harder, especially for honest police personnel.

THE YAKUZA were necessary opponents for THE PUNISHER(TM) in the film because their methodology was outside of his experience, giving him & Antagonist JOHNNY FRANCO a viable arc to travel together, just as DAREDEVIL(TM) & THE KINGPIN(TM) did in their film together.

As well, no "Kung Fu" was used in the film; it was Judo, Aikido, Karate & various other Japanese fighting systems, as well as Boxing.

The skull dagger motif would have worked if it complemented the skull that should have been emblazoned on THE PUNISHER'S(TM) chest, rather than replacing it.

KEVLAR™ must shield his entire torso in order to be effective, since no *beep* is going to shoot only @ the skull on his chest. Like him, they seek targets of opportunity, especially since they are generally not well-trained, highly proficient pistoleros, as THE PUNISHER(TM) is.

Everything that THE PUNISHER(TM) does in this film serves to advance Plot & reveal Character, which is a sign of good storytelling in Comics & in Cinema.

There are those who say THE PUNISHER(TM) is a "sociopath". However, I contend that THE PUNISHER(TM) has always had a conscience, but that killing criminals does not bother it, since he feels & thinks them beneath even his contempt. If he had none, then he would have no compunction about opening fire on civilians, as TB had THE BATMAN(TM) doing in his 1989 assassination of that character.

I think & feel that other reviewers/critics are being/have been overly dismissive of MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN'S acting ability to say that he "can't" do it. It would be fairer to say that he has a limited range & technical skill, but I thought & felt that he was perfect for THE PUNISHER(TM), just as he was perfect for HE-MAN(TM) in MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE(TM), IVAN DRAGO in ROCKY IV(TM), et cetera.

The monotone delivery was perfectly representative of a man who is in a state of mental disassociation, utterly alienated from Society, arguably even from himself.

The naked meditation in the sewer was indicative of his extensive Martial training, instead of making him like a character portrayed by HERR ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, a character who is covered in muscle, but who does not move like a trained fighter, utters vapid one-liners, has weapons that never exhaust themselves of ammunition, suffers no lasting effects of the violence visited upon him, & who does not undergo any meaningful change to his personality during the course of the story.

...And I say that with all due respect to HERR SCHWARZENEGGER, who is a brilliant businessman, but also an actor of limited range.

------------------
"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"
...And these weapons make me VERY f*ck*n' Responsible!

MALCOLM XERXES
Stuntman/Actor
MALCOLMXERXES.COM (http://www.a1000m.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=65)
The MX-Files (http://www.geocities.com/malcolmxerxes/index.html)

[themanwithoutfear]

good assesment of the film, man.
i always thought dolph's face had a skull look to it but thought it was just me.
also when we see him naked we see the damage this war on crime has taken on his body. and wait...didnt they use the same type of shot to establish the same idea in DAREDEVIL? yup.
just proves my point that punisher is the original modern marvel movie.

[Soccerdude]

malcom,u sure take the PUNISHER(TM)seriously,don't u?

not that there's anything wrong wirth that,but,u didn't need to go that far.
--------------------------------------
If u keep smoking round the school,u will spen ur life as a 6 yr old girl
"U serious"
i would have jean braid your hair.

[MALCOLMXERXES]

TMWF,

Thanks, B! I gotcha back, G!

************************************

SOCCERDUDE,

Yes, I take THE PUNISHER(TM) very seriously, indeed, which is why I'm here.

No, I don't HAVE "to go that far", but I LIke to do so.

------------------
"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"
...And these weapons make me VERY f*ck*n' Responsible!

MALCOLM XERXES
Stuntman/Actor
MALCOLMXERXES.COM (http://www.a1000m.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=65)
The MX-Files (http://www.geocities.com/malcolmxerxes/index.html)

[Zercon]

Dolf may not have being able to act himself out of a paper bag but he DID look the part. This picture on the other thread looks likes this guy has a gut on him. And what's up with that lip? Does he have buck-teeth?
If they cast that guy I will wait for the video release, and then get the "rent 2 get one free". It will be the one I get for free...

[Essex]

So you were far more willing to pay money to see a movie with an actor you say is awful, but looks the part? Now that's pretty ridiculous...how about you wait to see more than ONE promo shot before you make such a long-standing statement...? http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/rolleyes.gif

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"That which does not kill us...makes us stranger." - Trevor Goodchild, Aeon Flux

[The Guard]

I don't think that it's a question of Dolph not being able to act, as it is him acting as the character is written. And The Punisher was written as a depressed, alienated loner. When you're extremely depressed, you look half-asleep, bored as hell. You speak in a total monotone. I appreciate THE PUNISHER more each time I watch it.

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BATMAN TRIUMPHANT (http://www.angelfire.com/comics/superpowers/BatmanTriumphant.html)

SUPERPOWERS (http://www.angelfire.com/comics/superpowers/Superpowers.html)

[CaptainSkeptic]

Sorry MX but I have to completely disagree with you on this one.Not about Dolph Lundren mind you, he was great.The movie itself however was total crap.The thing that immediately throws a wrench into your rationalizations above is that the script for this film was originally written as an entirely different project.The screenwriter, upon recieving the Punisher gig simply picked up a script he had lying around about a cop turned serial killer and changed a few names and retitled it "The Punisher".
There was no plan to capture any subtle nuances from the comics.The movie is also full of really tired comic-book-to-movie cliches.For example:the hero standing in a doorway in full view of the press a split second before the house blows up.I understand why they did this.Batman was a HUGE box office success and the producers wanted to cash in on some "Batman-like stuff".We are supposed to get the impression that the Punisher is a mysteriosu anti-hero and everyone knows that mysterious anti-heroes always stand menacingly in doorways then turn and walk away at a snail's pace one second before the house blows up but somehow get away unscathed.

I understand the thinking behind such plot devices...I just don't buy it.I am not upset because it is unrealistic.I could give a rat's ass about realism.I just don't like having a cliche hammered into my face while people stand in the background waving placards reminding me that "He is a mysterious anti-hero!".

Ninjas.If you want to insure that your action movie is not at all taken seriously.That it will go directly to video and not pass any movie theatres or collect any money on the way then by all means, include hordes of ninjas.
But don't stop there!Ninjas alone are not cliche' enough to carry your flick into the annals of unwatched obscurity!You must include all of the following as well:

1)A Seductively beautiful female baddie who is as cruel as Satan!She herself should be a ninja and regularly perform such ridiculous feats as throwing shuriken with such force that a man's hands are not only hit but each pinned to the wall so tightly he cannot pull them free!

2)A scene where the anti-hero is captured and tortured via a rack or electroshock.The anti-hero should crack wise at every opportunity but under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the one-liners actually be funny!

3)As touched upon above, the mysterious escapes.I am willing to suspend disbelief to enjoy a good action yarn.But if the protagonist ascends to the rooftop of 10-20 story office building, with an entire police department and Louis Gosset Jr. on his heels, only to mysteriously disappear within seconds, I want some hint as to how he did it.Not only how he got off the rooftop but away from a massive coordinated police action.This guy kills over 125 people in 5 years and he gets away by simply dragging himself to the roof and vanishing?!?No rappelling gear.No parachute and no powered hanglider.
Sorry but again, a little subtlety goes a long way.

I won't even go over all the other stuff(riding motorcycles in sewers etc.) again.Suffice to say that this movie was BAD.Bad dialogue, plotting and a script so simple minded as to be an insult to simple-minded scripts.

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"I am in a very peculiar business...I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know."-James Randi

[This message has been edited by CaptainSkeptic (edited 07-22-2003).]

[themanwithoutfear]

abot the one liners during toture being NOT funny.....
are you nuts? that line was HIGH-larious!
"who sent you?"
" batman."
laufhed my ass off......

[MALCOLMXERXES]

ZERCON,

The fact that MR. DOLPH LUNDGREN looked like THE PUNISHER(TM) went a long way with me, also.

As for THOMAS JANE, having seen & heard the teaser trailer for his version of THE PUNISHER(TM), I am far more excited about the coming film than ever before, but I do understand your concerns.

**********************************

THE GUARD,

I grok the fullness of the totality!

I, too, find more to appreciate in the film whenever I see it.

*********************************

CAPTAINSKEPTIC,

I understand why you say what you did.

However, I did not know anything about the screenwriter's intent prior to having been commissioned to write THE PUNISHER(TM), so that bias did not & does not intrude upon my enjoyment of the picture.

While re-reading a recent GARTH ENNIS story, I noted that the skull dagger had been incorporated into his arsenal, a detail that I had overlooked when first I read the book, so I am not alone in my "rationalisations", apparently!

THE PUNISHER(TM) did not escape The Dapper Don's house unscathed. If you care to note it, his clothing, face & body are covered in soot & ash, thereafter, a subtle detail that impressed me greatly. His successful exfiltration from that building in front of witnesses was a brilliant tactical decision on his part, since those who acknowledged him & his activities would believe him to be dead.

THE PUNISHER(TM) "hates ninjas", as he has said in his book, so they did not upset me, particularly since he took a savage beating from them after attempting to escape their clutches.

LADY TANAKA was a credible Antagonist, methought, the moreso since she forced us to recognise that her sex is no barrier to THE PUNISHER'S(TM) justice.

I think that a man whose limbs are being torn from his torso may be forgiven for not having time to hire BOB HOPE'S writing team. http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/wink.gif

The "mysterious escapes" were all part of what I loved about the character as presented in this film, but I'm sorry that your own Suspension of Disbelief was strained beyond its limits. I am willing to go along with the possibility that he had prepped a means of escape before he agreed to help GIANNI FRANCO, since Escape & Evasion are as much a part of THE PUNISHER'S(TM) bailiwick as the ruthless killing of professional gangsters.

**********************************

THEMANWITHOUTFEAR,

"BATMAN(TM)" also makes me laugh whenever I watch the film!

------------------
"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"
...And these weapons make me VERY f*ck*n' Responsible!

MALCOLM XERXES
Stuntman/Actor
MALCOLMXERXES.COM (http://www.a1000m.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=65)
The MX-Files (http://www.geocities.com/malcolmxerxes/index.html)