The Lesbian Aspect

[FireStormTrooper]

How should this question be addressed (if at all)? Because the concept of a community of immortal, physically young women living completely isolated from men for thousands of years will raise questions about their sexuality. Are the amazons in some kind of sexual hiberation (a condition that does exist in the real world) or would lesbianism be acknowledged as a possibility? I can't see it being made too much a big deal of in any WW movie, but I'm sure it would come up by audience members and others. What do you guys and girls think?

[WonderWomanGoddess]

Boy, at first when I saw your thread title I was all set to be irritated. But, actually that's a valid a well put question.

I'm really fond of how this was dealt with in a particular issue waaaaay back. I think it was Perez written and it was during the story arc where Paradise Island was opened up to the 'public' for the first time, meaning a smattering of press (including Lois Lane) and a diverse group of people were brought to the island for a feast and celebration.


One of the people in the group was a conservative christian priest. He had a real bad attitude to say the least, and one of the things he asked Diana was basically how they lived sexually. He felt that the question would embarrass her and he clearly expected her to deny any lesbianism.

Instead, she answered that (I'm paraphrasing) it was personal choice for each Amazon. She said some follow the path of Artemis, and remain willingly chase, some pleasure themselves, and yes, some 'turn to their sisters'. Diana's smooth and honest response, and the flustered priest were great!

So I'd like to see it handled in similar way.

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"The Goddess has spoken..."

[This message has been edited by WonderWomanGoddess (edited 07-26-2003).]

[Frostbite]

You've all got to keep in mind that little 8 year olds are going to go see this movie, too. It has to be handled in a way that if you're not expecting it, you won't notice it (that way the kiddies and their mommies and all the people from Arkansas, Missouri and Alabama won't realize).

[WonderWomanGoddess]

I think it's most likey the movie will be rated PG-13 (tho I'd prefer R, but I always prefer R for my own tastes).

If so, 8 year olds do not need to be seeing it. Hence the '13'. 13 year olds are old enough for references to sexuality. I'm not saying they should show some Amazon's getting it on.

And if the 'moms' of the 8 year olds don't like it, to damn bad! They shouldn't be taking young kids to see teen and up movies anyways.

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"The Goddess has spoken..."

[WC]

Maybe no-one would think of it if you don't bring it up. After all, how many people's minds did this cross until this subject was raised? Not mine, certainly.

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Meoww! Send in the clowns!

[Frostbite]

I thought of it before it was brought up. I guess I just have a dirty mind....

[norrinraad]

It never crossed my mind either, I guess because I always assumed that without men, Amazons did not reproduce in the conventional way. I'm sure I've read that Diana's mother formed her out of clay and other earth materials. I'm hardly an expert on WW but the "lesbian aspect" never occurred to me. It is an interesting point though...

[Frostbite]

The real Amazons would just go into civilization every once in awhile to have sex with men and then if they got pregnant they'd kill the male children, and have the females grow up to become the new Amazons.

[WonderWomanGoddess]

That is a myth Frostbite with no evidence to support it. Just as Amazon's supposedly cut off their right breasts to use the bow and arrow. That's preposterous and that myth was spread by the exact same people who started the one you mention.

I have done quite a bit of reading on this subject and sadly, there is actually very little hard evidence to suggest there ever were any real Amazons.

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"The Goddess has spoken..."

[Darth_zaiyen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WonderWomanGoddess:
<B>I have done quite a bit of reading on this subject and sadly, there is actually very little hard evidence to suggest there ever were any real Amazons.

</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So whose to say they didn't cut their right breasts off? http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/wink.gif

Anyways, though I do understand Welsh's question, it must be realized that SOMEONE is bound to be in the audience and wonder what the deal is. Perhaps just a general, subtle statement like someone mentioned would do. Diana could be narrating at the beggining of the movie talking about the island and how it's inhabited only by women, and she could say something resembling WWG's quote.

[WC]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darth_zaiyen:
<B> So whose to say they didn't cut their right breasts off? http://www.comics2film.com/UBB/wink.gif

Anyways, though I do understand Welsh's question, it must be realized that SOMEONE is bound to be in the audience and wonder what the deal is. Perhaps just a general, subtle statement like someone mentioned would do. Diana could be narrating at the beggining of the movie talking about the island and how it's inhabited only by women, and she could say something resembling WWG's quote.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but there will always be someone who wonders something about a particular film or tv episode. That's why you get these film nitpickers guides. But if WW or someone else mentions it in the film, then everyone will think of it when maybe they didn't before. Whenevner I used to watch the old tv show with Lynda Carter, that wouldn't have ever crossed my mind, because after WW left the Amazon island, one tended to focus on her and the story. I'm not sure how much of the film should be spent dwelling on the Amazon island (whatever it's called), but should just be a springboard into the main story.

I really don't think there needs to be any sort of lesbian subtext in Wonder Woman, particularly nothing of the sort that was in Xena. After all, in the Hulk, people did probably wonder why his pants didn't rip when Banner changed, but it was something that everyone working on the fim (apart from Ang Lee of course who wanted the naked Hulk) simply didn't address and decided not to make an issue out of. I think the same thing could be done for WW with regard to an all-women Amazon island.


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Meoww! Send in the clowns!

[imported_Thom]

When I think of an entirely female inhabitation, all I wonder about is what I'd have to do to receive death by snu-snu.

[norrinraad]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Welshcat:
Whenevner I used to watch the old tv show with Lynda Carter, that wouldn't have ever crossed my mind, because after WW left the Amazon island, one tended to focus on her and the story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true. To build on that, I've seen a few of these episodes on video and I vaguely remember WW being almost child-like in regards to things like sex and dating. As the series progressed she slowly became more worldly in terms of attraction and so forth. I'm sure she says at one point that Amazons really have no use for men or their "barbarian culture" or something to that effect; however, there was never any implication that lesbianism was rampant on Amazon Island. I rather liked that naive approach, it struck me as being realistic for someone of Diana's origin. And from what I've read, the comics seem to be fairly consistent with that approach as well.

I dunno, I think introducing a lesbian subtext in Wonder Woman, or even implying one, would be wrong. Of course, there will always be those who will read something like that into a story about an island full of nothing but women. I'm convinced that a large chunk of the audience for Y The Last Man is there because the general concept tickles them. Even thought the book itself has wisely avoided the obvious, there's always the possibility of future wish fulfillment. A similar parallel can be drawn with movies like Interview With The Vampire and Batman & Robin. I have read all over the internet about the supposed "homoerotic" subtext of those films, but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I can see any evidence in either film to support that. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder after all. I just hope WB doesn't add a lesbian aspect in order to entice audiences and fill seats. That would be sinking to a brand new low.

[WonderWomanGoddess]

Well here's the thing. I hope they do NOT base the movie on the TV show. The show was good for it's time, but I want the movie to be far above and beyond that.

Diana herself is different from the other Amazons. For one thing, they are all thousands of years old, while she is pretty young (I believe she was supposed to be just 18 or so when she left the island). ALso, they have all known men in the past. They have the attitude that men are dangerous and oppresive and good for nothing but hurting you (rightly so, with their history). But Diana has never known men at all, so she is naturally a)not bitter towards them and b) curious about them.

So where it is natural for there to be some lesbianism with the other Amazons, I don't see that for Diana. It's never been part of her character. Also, while Diana is naive about the customs of man's world, and she is sheltered having been the Princess AND in such and isolated society, she is not really childlike. I dislike that portrayal as she maybe innocent and naive by our cultures standards but she is not stupid, and she is sophisticated and intellegent in her culture (tho still young and compassionate).

Well I gotta go and I forgot what my point was, but I definately agree it shouldn't be handled like Xena. Also I agree it shouldn't be added just for sensationalism to draw a crowd. It'd be OK with me if they just left it out, but it's a valid angle, if done right.

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"The Goddess has spoken..."

[norrinraad]

No no no no no no no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WWG, I didn't mean that I want the movie to be based on the TV show (shudder), nor do I think Diana should be portrayed as child-like! In the comics she is highly intelligent, philosophical and regal, and that should be echoed in the movie. I meant that she is child-like in the sense that her experience with things like sex and dating has been negligible. The character herself, however, is not even remotely child-like and should not come across as such. The more distance between the movie and the campy TV show the better, as far as I'm concerned.

[The Xenos]

Ok, so we got the lesbian topic discussed. Now what about the issue of bondage?

...

What? Actually, I'm half joking. I remember reading about how a number of times in the early WW comics you had WW gets tied up or cahined up, not to mention her use of the golden lasso.

As for the lesbianism, wheter they say it or not someone will likely imply it and maybe even protrest it. Good old Doc Fredrick Wertham did after WW2. Look what he did to horror comics as well as those he accused of being homosexuals, like WW and Batman and Robin. He implanted his own arguments between the lines and got them in trouble.

As for Batman and Robin and the Schumacher films... eh.. I sensed it a little bit. Oddly I also thought Schumacher was implying somehting between Alfred and Bruce and not just the standard B&R slashing. Then agian look what he did even to the costumes.

Of course, you may never experience people implying slash/homosexual relationships between two characters like runnig into yaoi/shonen-ai fangirls at an anime con. I went to a con where they had all the Gundam pilot voice actors from Gundam Wing. The cat calls and questions from the audience were jsut disturbing at some points. And for the love of crap what's wrong with Ms. Relena! She and Hiro, man. I like Hiro and I like Duo... but.. no.. you don't the two like that. Bad, bad fangirls. Of course then your get the yuri fanboys who slash female characters.. oi. Well,long story short, people will connect whatever dots they want.

-Xenos

[Frostbite]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Xenos:
Well,long story short, people will connect whatever dots they want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But the dots had to come from somewhere.

[FireStormTrooper]

Wow. Never thought my thread would last this long. It was more of an idle thought. Outside of a throwaway remark somewhere in the movie, I honestly can't see this being made into an issue at all. Who cares? I mean, they could make a young Etta Candy gay or bi and have the hots for Diana to see how WW would react to that, but even that's highly unlikely. Trust me, we're probably making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Frostbite]

In The New Teen Titans (vol. 2) #3, Donna is confronted by an evil version of her soul, and she says to Donna, who at the time is married to Terry Long, "You forsook Paradise Island for this? I thought we had more taste than that." Is that subtext or what?