Kids and Naughty Games

[KingVoyeur]

Ok, I put this story on the "In the News" thread, but Kah suggested it be its own thread, and I agree. Kids shouldn't have access to this kind of stuff.

From CNN.com

Video games get very, very naughty

Friday, April 7, 2006; Posted: 10:39 a.m. EDT (14:39 GMT)

NEW YORK (AP) -- Online games have so far mainly revolved around the killing of fantasy monsters. The occasional fight with a Stormtrooper provides some variety.

Companies are now developing a handful of games -- though calling them that is a stretch -- designed to give players a very different option: making love, not war.

In "Naughty America: The Game," set to launch early this summer, players will assume the forms of alluring but cartoonish people who meet, flirt and have sex with other player characters.

Characters will have their own apartment, but the world will have also have "public sex zones" and themed rooms, said Tina Courtney, the game's producer.

"We've got the cowboy room, the make-your-own-porn room ... it doesn't just have to be 'Your place or mine?"' Courtney said.

Flirting and dating have been rife in online games like "Everquest" and "World of Warcraft" -- even leading to marriage between players -- despite a lack of romantic or sexual features in the games.

On the other hand, sex-oriented games like "Playboy: The Mansion" and "VirtuallyJenna" have been single-player games with no online component, and thus no interaction between players.

This new crop of adults-only games would combine the player-player interaction of the online games and the graphic sexuality of the single-player games.

Game designer Brenda Brathwaite, who has been in the industry for more than 20 years, sees the new games as a natural evolution of online life, noting that even in the very simple text-based adventure games of the 80s, virtual eyelashes were batted.

"If there were two people playing, eventually those people would start flirting," said Brathwaite, who is working on a book about sex in video games.

Multiplayer sexual games are in the works now, Brathwaite said, because Internet connections have become fast enough to make graphically rich online environments and characters possible. For the games that envision players also meeting in real life, mainstream acceptance of dating sites like Match.com also helps.

In "Red Light Center," a game already available in a test version, players take the shape of three-dimensional characters in a red-light district. They can talk to one another through headsets and microphones.

"Rapture Online," a game Black Love Interactive LLC is set to launch next year, will also have three-dimensional characters, with a lot of attention paid to anatomical correctness. It will feature a networking component similar to that of a dating site, but it won't be necessary to use that feature.

"I'm hoping couples who are in a distance relationship will be able to use this privately between them," developer Kelly Rued said.

Of course, these games raise the possibility of sexual predators lurking in the chat rooms. Naughty America has plans to let users pay for a background check that scans their criminal record. Users who do so would have a special tag in their profiles, identifying them to others as someone who's been vetted.

Success for the new games is far from assured, even though they plan to combine dating, fantasy worlds, sexual chat rooms and pornography -- four things that have had enduring online popularity.

A few small companies started down this road a few years ago, but have only attracted a small number of users.

"SeduCity" began in 2001 with a simple two-dimensional graphical interface and has 1,500 users, according to David Andrews at Stratagem Corp., the company behind the game. By comparison, Blizzard Entertainment Inc.'s "World of Warcraft" has more than 5.5 million users.

Ren Reynolds, a British technology consultant and writer, believes that players may prefer to continue flirting in fantasy games that aren't explicitly sexual, or they may feel that three-dimensional environments don't improve on text-based chat rooms.

"It's true that you can do more things with text than you can with visuals," Reynolds said. "Why would I want to log on to a game just to have sex with people? It's kind of a nice idea, but I see it as difficult as a sustainable business model."

With the cost of game design increasing, it can be hard to recruit investors for a new type of game. Republik Games said last week it had been unable to close its latest round of financing, forcing it to suspend work on "Spend the Night," another sex-oriented online game that was to debut this year. The studio laid off its entire production team of 12 people.

In their favor, sex game developers point to the relative success of "Second Life," a three-dimensional online world that gives its participants freedom to do pretty much anything they want, as long as they can master the game's rather intricate controls.

The game is not designed to be sexual in nature, but about a third of the activity in its world, which has about 100,000 users, centers around adult encounters, according to its developers.

"Second Life," from Linden Research Inc., also is popular with women, something sex-game developers believe they will have to duplicate.

"At the risk of sounding incredibly shallow, if you have women in a game, the men will come," Brathwaite said. "A lot of the stuff that they're doing is directly targeting women."

Kyle Machulis, a technology consultant who runs Web journals devoted to sex in games, said developers are trying to draw inspiration from sexually charged fiction that has proven attractive to women, like Harlequin romance novels.

Another hurdle for sex-game developers is distribution. Most retailers won't sell games with the "Adults Only" or "AO" rating. Outrage and lawsuits followed last year's revelation that a sex scene was hidden in Take-Two Interactive Software Inc.'s action game "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas," which was rated less restrictively at "Mature."

Publishers can bypass stores by selling their games online, but exposure on store shelves is still an important part of game marketing. Specialist game stores will stock AO games that are already hits, Rued said, but will keep them behind the counter.

"I'm more interested in places where people are already being carded," Rued said. "We're trying to open up some really weird alternative channels, like liquor stores."

Reactions?

[sickness]

Simple solution: it's pornography. Sell it online or in adult bookstores and stripclubs. Use of a credit card online is considered sufficient identification that one is over the age of 18. As far as selling it in person, I've never been carded so much as I have in stripclubs. And I'm 29.

[kah]

I want to be more specific about what I am seeing going on in the world today. I will talk about my friend and his three kids, but I know that their friends, and many others like them are doing the same things.

My friend has three children. The little girl just turned 8, the middle boy is 10, and the oldest boy just turned 13. I love my friend and I love his kids, but I have to be honest. I think he is a bad father. I won't list all the reasons I think so, but I will explain the ones that relate to this thread.

Violent Video Games. When GTA:Vice City came out, the oldest had just turned 9. It took a few months before my friend got the game, but when he did, he did not allow the children to play it. A couple weeks later, he found out that his 9 and 6 year old boys were playing it next door, where the boy's mother was an invalid, and his grandmother supported them by working nights as a nurse. Instead of speaking to the kid's grandmother, and forbidding the children to play it, he let them play it at his house, since they'd already been exposed. The same thing happened with GTA:San Andreas. Worse, the boys aren't very good at completing missions, so instead, they steal cars, drive them around, and indiscriminately kill people with gunfire, or a chainsaw, or beat them to death with their bare hands, all the while trying to avoid being nabbed by police.

Sexual/Violent Movies. I can't tell you how many times these kids have seen the Scary Movies. If you tell me they are comedies, and not harmful to children, then maybe you need to watch them again and put yourself in the mindset of a 6 year old girl while you do it. Their mother and father are divorced, and don't get along all that great, so they don't discuss their parenting choices with each other. One day, the kids ask their father if he can rent Saw 2 for them. Horrified, he says no. They say, well, Mom let us watch Saw and we want to see what happens in the next movie. The little girl watches and rewatches the Jurassic Park movies. The boys love Gone in 60 Seconds, and the Alien franchise.

I have watched these children grow up from before the girl was born. I have seen the boys playing with hotwheel cars in the dirt, and spoiled the girl so badly she didn't walk til she was a year and a half. (She was so cute I couldn't put her down) Now, I've heard the oldest boy tell his grandmother that if she didn't shut up, he'd knock her teeth into the back of her throat. He wishes his brother and sister were dead so he'd be alone. The middle boy was sexually assaulted at 8 years old by this fucking son of a bitch whose father let him and his brother look up porn on the internet. The oldest boy is constantly calling his brother gay, because of what happened to him. His father and I still catch him talking to the boy's brother, though. He is so naive, it scares the shit out of me. The little girl wants to wear makeup and earrings and dresses all the time, and when boys come over to play with her brothers, she is constantly hanging on them, and sitting inappropriately in her dress. She came home from a friend's house one day with marker on her body where her underwear covered. Her brother saw it when she was getting into the shower. I am the only one who said a word about it. She denied, her father ignored, and now she is just not supposed to play there anymore.

The excuse that they are just children and don't know what they are doing just doesn't wash with me anymore. They are not my children, but I love them like they are. I do whatever I can, but I can't undo what their parents have done and are still doing. A lot of the problem is also what they are not doing. Between not bothering to meet the parents of his kids' friends, to letting them get away with taking off on the weekends before he's even gotten up and not returning til after dark without a phone call or note or anything, to ignoring them when they are home, to allowing them access to movies, games, and television that is not age appropriate, it's no wonder they are naughty.

I wish I could say he is the only parent out there like this, but it's just not true. While he may be actively ignoring and allowing unacceptable behavior, some parents just aren't aware of the issues. Their kids are going over to their friends' houses where the parents are like my friend. The kids get to do things they can't do at home, so they don't tell their parents. You remember in high school, there was always one parent who would buy cigarettes for their kids, or let their kids drink, or have sex in their house. Or they have a single mother/father, who just isn't able to be home all the time, and has to trust that their kids have common sense and a sense of responsibility.

I am not saying all kids are bad, or that all parents are bad. I'm just saying that this content should not be available to children. They are growing up believing that society is like the game/movie world, and that consequences don't exist for their actions. I wouldn't be opposed to these types of movies/games being sold at specialty stores, where you can't even enter unless you are 18. Have the rules of a porn shop, but without the sex toys.

I believe parents should have the right to raise their kids the way they choose, but I don't think they should have the right to damage them with this type of material. There should be a penalty for an adult buying a M or AO game or R or X rated movie for kids, just like there is for cigarettes or alcohol.

Or stop making and selling these games altogether. They don't contribute to society except to make a few game creators very wealthy. Yes, people will always be drawn to sex and violence. It is human nature. It doesn't have to be portrayed as glorified and free of ramifications, though, and that's what kids are being led to believe. I'd rather see more truth.

[Jakester]

Kah, I really do love you, but your last paragraph made me go "huh?"

I will say that I do know that it's criminal to have sex in front of kids, or expose them to pr0n, and obvoiously, drugs and alcohol, and I don't disagree with that.

But a child can freely read the most descriptive and violent book (or erotica, even) at the local bookstore without impediment. Maybe we should start banning violent books, too. After all, the mind sees thing better than film ever could show us. Our imaginations fill in the blanks for us so vividly, that the written word can be more powerful than celluloid.

Now, violent videogames and movies are an extension and progression of the written word, just as theater. I agree that parents should be made aware of content contained in games and movies (and TV), but, beyond that, I don't think that the creators or publishers have any more responsibility.

For the record, though, I think letting your kids watch Saw or play any GTA at 9 or 10 or 11 is insane.

[Minion]

I've always liked this editorial on the subject:

A Gaming Dialogue (http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1102)

Minion: Well written.

[kah]

Kah, I really do love you, but your last paragraph made me go "huh?"

I will say that I do know that it's criminal to have sex in front of kids, or expose them to pr0n, and obvoiously, drugs and alcohol, and I don't disagree with that.

But a child can freely read the most descriptive and violent book (or erotica, even) at the local bookstore without impediment. Maybe we should start banning violent books, too. After all, the mind sees thing better than film ever could show us. Our imaginations fill in the blanks for us so vividly, that the written word can be more powerful than celluloid.

Now, violent videogames and movies are an extension and progression of the written word, just as theater. I agree that parents should be made aware of content contained in games and movies (and TV), but, beyond that, I don't think that the creators or publishers have any more responsibility.

For the record, though, I think letting your kids watch Saw or play any GTA at 9 or 10 or 11 is insane.

As far as books go- the violence and erotica in books is usually, not always, but usually surrounded by explanations and some ramifications. The ability to spend several pages or chapters even explaining a single event makes books vastly more worthwhile.

On to reality- when's the last time you saw a preteen or teenager pick up a book that wasn't required reading?

[kah]

I've always liked this editorial on the subject:

A Gaming Dialogue (http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1102)

Minion: Well written.

I actually agree with this article. And for most people, everything is based on preference. The average age of video game players is 29. I don't really think any games should be banned. I'm all for freedom of expression. I just made the point that in my opinion, they could stop making those types of games. My issue with them is the children playing them, which all comes back to the parents.

[sickness]

As far as books go- the violence and erotica in books is usually, not always, but usually surrounded by explanations and some ramifications. The ability to spend several pages or chapters even explaining a single event makes books vastly more worthwhile.

On to reality- when's the last time you saw a preteen or teenager pick up a book that wasn't required reading?

My 12-year-old niece has three books on her at all times: the one she's reading, the one she's going to read next and one to peruse in case she finishes that one. There are a LOT of preteens who read voraciously, they just make up a small percentage of the kids out there.

[Minion]

I actually agree with this article. And for most people, everything is based on preference. The average age of video game players is 29. I don't really think any games should be banned. I'm all for freedom of expression. I just made the point that in my opinion, they could stop making those types of games. My issue with them is the children playing them, which all comes back to the parents.
Exactly. It all comes down to the parents and sadly, that's something that takes more then just legislation to bring to fruition. My one criticism of the video game industry is their lackluster attempts at making proactive steps towards education parents about video games that are obviously not meant for children. They always seem to be on the defense of overzealous politicans with agendas instead of going on the offense against the criticisms.

The little warning labels and rating on the boxes are a step, but I know too many people who just see "video game = babysitter". It's not a problem that can solely be confined to the video game. It gets applied to games, television, movies, etc. All the things parents feel they can rely on instead of actual, god damned parenting. Whatever happened to parents keeping an eye on their kids?

Minion: Can't remember if that article mentions that even though video game exposure has increased significantly, youth violence has decreased.

[kah]

My 12-year-old niece has three books on her at all times: the one she's reading, the one she's going to read next and one to peruse in case she finishes that one. There are a LOT of preteens who read voraciously, they just make up a small percentage of the kids out there.

My sister and I were also, and still are, like that. I am usually in the middle of 3 books at a time. However, most of the people I know, dropouts, high school grads, and college grads alike, have rarely or never read a book for entertainment. My bf has never read a book for fun. He has a problem with reading comprehension, so he can only retain short articles. He reads car magazines constantly, so I have to content myself with the fact that he reads something. Illiteracy in America (http://www.nrrf.org/essay_Illiteracy.html) My friend's 10 year old that I mentioned above, has written his name as a two initial nickname for so long, he can't even spell his own name. He can remember all the cheat codes for San Andreas, though. Pathetic.

[kah]

Minion: Can't remember if that article mentions that even though video game exposure has increased significantly, youth violence has decreased.

While youth obesity (http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/obesity/index.htm) and diabetes have increased.

[kah]

Minion: Can't remember if that article mentions that even though video game exposure has increased significantly, youth violence has decreased.


NCPA Fact Sheet On Juvenile Crime
Serious crime by youths is on the rise:
The number of juvenile murderers tripled between 1984 and 1994.

Youthful murderers using guns increased four-fold over the same period.

Juvenile gang killings have nearly quadrupled between 1980 and 1992.

In 1994, eight in ten juvenile murderers used a firearm, up from five in ten in 1983.

The number of juveniles murdered increased 82 percent between 1984 and 1994.

The nationwide juvenile arrest rate for violent crimes increased 50 percent between 1988 and 1994.
Source: U.S. Dept. Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, Juvenile Offenders and Victims: 1996 Update on Violence

Here's (http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/juvcrm/eocp1.html#1b) the rest of that article.

And the Decline... (http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/209735/page2.html)

[Minion]

Let's not get into an article topping contest here. For ever study that states video game have an affect on youth violence, or article claiming video games make kids aggressive and violent, there is another one (http://www.livescience.com/technology/051204_video_violence.html)that states the complete opposite (http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html). Could they have an affect? Maybe, but the same could be said for all forms of media. The underlying issue is one of how children are being raised these days, and which is more to blame: violent media exposure or lax parenting that isn't present to explain what children might be exposed to.

And the obesity and diabetes? Yeah...that's sort of on the rise across all groups, not just children. Could be possible that has a lot more to do with what we're eating and how much of it we're eating. Sedentary children are not an inevitability.

Minion: Believes we can all agree that no one likes Jack Thompson.

[fastcar]

Let's ask this question.

When I was 13, we watched and read Romeo and Juliet.

Two kids who at the age of 14 rebel against their parents, kill people, marry, have sex, and then commit suicide because they can't be together.

At the age of 15 we read Tale of Two Cities and Julius Caesar and "The Scottish Play."


How is that any different?

If kids were reading respected works of literature in school that described the same things that you could do on your Xbox, would people care?

[Magell]

Kah that article is 11 years old so it's really not accurate to what Minion is talking about.

There are no reliable tests showing that playing video games make kids more violent. I've read a lot of those tests and the way they measure the aggression is nothing like what you would think it to be. They don't measure violent aggression just aggression.

The rise in diabetes and obesity probably has more to do with the horrible diets of people now than it does with video games.

[Queen Mae]

There have always been book burners.

[Bark]

I think a sex game is better than a shooter game. I don't care if you are destroying storm troopers. Blowing a man's head off with your rifle is a lot worse than bl[...]. :eyebrow:

[kah]

Kah that article is 11 years old so it's really not accurate to what Minion is talking about.

There are no reliable tests showing that playing video games make kids more violent. I've read a lot of those tests and the way they measure the aggression is nothing like what you would think it to be. They don't measure violent aggression just aggression.

The rise in diabetes and obesity probably has more to do with the horrible diets of people now than it does with video games.


The article has nothing to do with video games. It has to do with violent children. And the one after that has to do with the recent decline in violence committed by children. I was just backing up his claims.

fastcar- When you read Romeo and Juliet, did your teacher discuss the play with you? Did he/she start out by saying, this is called a "tragedy?" Did they talk about how children were often married by 15 (well, girls anyway) at that time? Did they discuss with you the mistake of judging a situation too hastily (Romeo taking his life upon seeing Juliet dead)? In Caesar, did your teacher explain how JC wanted to be an emperor, and how that would destroy the Republic. Did they explain that the senators killed him to preserve their democracy, that they believed in it so much that even his friend Brutus delivered a wound?

Of course they did. A teacher wouldn't hand a kid a violent book, have them read it, and then never discuss the issues within. There is a reason kids read Shakespeare. One- he's a legend. Two- there are usually lessons to be learned in reading his works. Three- it makes children really think when they read. Just like the Illiad and the Odyssey, kids are forced to really pay attention to what they are reading. The have to get past the different language nuances, and reading a novel in the form of a play, or a poem. It strengthens reading comprehension.

Tell me what there is to be learned from Grand Theft Auto. What can parents show their kids and discuss with them afterwards? Is there any redeeming value at all?

The rise in obesity and diabetes has to do with poor diet and inactivity. Those of you who are my age and older- when you were kids, how many fat kids did you know? Not many. Most people then didn't get fat until they started working their desk job all day, then went home and ate dinner in front of the tv, to amble into bed only to start the same routine the next day. It wasn't kids that had that problem. We actually played outside, and used our imaginations. We rode bikes, and climbed trees, and played Tag and Stuck in the Mud.

My friend's kids will sit in front of the tv, or a video game for hours on end. They have so many toys, you can barely walk through their bedroom, but they don't want to play with them. If you tell them to go play outside, they complain. "It's boring, there's nothing to do, there's nobody to play with, blah blah blah." So back to the tv they go. I actually watched the oldest one turn fat. There was an ice cream joint down the road that his friend would buy him burgers at all the time. Then, the lunch program at school changed. The parents just had to write a check to the school, and the money would go into an account for hot lunches. When the money started running out, we were wondering how it went so fast. My friend called for a statement, and we found out the kid was ordering 8-9 dollars a day in food. Burgers, chips, sodas, cookies, plus the regular hot lunch. Every day. Then, he'd come home and eat in front of the tv. If he went outside, it was with his friend to go to the ice cream place, where his friend bought him junkfood. I swear, the kid got FAT over the winter. Then, his father stopped buying the kids hot lunch, forcing them to take sandwiches, the ice cream place closed, and the kid next door moved away. He started riding his bike more, and has returned to a normal weight. It's just a matter of finding the source of the problems, and dealing with them. I'm not saying the kid is all better, because he's obviously not, but the weight issue has at least been dealt with.

Now if his father would grow a brain and take those damned video games away from the kids, and give them his attention, they would be a lot better. All they really want is for their dad to play with them. His selfishness is the problem. He wants the kids to busy themselves and leave him alone. What he's left with is damaged children who have no imagination, are barely literate, and violent to boot. They are the poster family for what not to do as a single parent.

I wish I could say he's the only parent like this, but you all know he's not. Like Minion said- these parents have turned tvs and video games into babysitters. It's sad and it's wrong.

[Minion]

Now if his father would grow a brain and take those damned video games away from the kids, and give them his attention, they would be a lot better. All they really want is for their dad to play with them.

Gah! I had this perfect article that told the story about this exact thing! A kid who was acting out and really just wanted attention from his parents, but they just thought "oh, let's give him a new video game...he'll like us for that."

I have no idea what I did with the link....effin' history autoclear...

Minion: Will snoop around for it.

[Cncrman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Cncrman/20060412.jpg

Courtesy of "Penny Arcade" I felt it was appropriate and humorous.

[Minion]

Listening to the Podcast (http://www.penny-arcade.com/docs/Doctor%20Feelgood.mp3) of them going over that comic is incredibly entertaining as well.

Minion: Hehe....

[Cncrman]

Listening to the Podcast (http://www.penny-arcade.com/docs/Doctor%20Feelgood.mp3) of them going over that comic is incredibly entertaining as well.

Minion: Hehe....

Just got done listening to that. Very funny! Especially after you find out that study was done with 18-21 year old college students.


Thanks for the heads up there Minion.