The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy

[Space Tycoon]

The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy (http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf)

This is a thesis produced by John J Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago; and Stephen Walt, of Harvard University. The latter lost his job as a result of the controversy surrounding the paper. It expresses in clear, simple langauge the issues surrounding America's baffling policies and actions towards the State of Israel and her neighbours, from two respected academics.

The paper has elicited the typical reactions of hysteria and accusations of anti-Semitism, from people like Alan Dershowitz and his ilk. You can read about it here. (http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8787)

But this groundbreaking report is truly worth a read, I would recommend it to anyone. This is the type of discussion Americans should be having right now, if we are ever to understand the real reasons for the level of hate this part of the world has for them.



Oh, and it's pdf, btw.



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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Personally, I really don't care whether or not Israel is complicit in anything America or anyone else finds objectionable. I will always think of them as an ally and partner in this world, and attempts to deflect from the greater truth in order to turn America against Israel will always be ignored by me.

[Space Tycoon]

Ah. I see.

Well, it's good to see you're looking at the issue with eyes wide open...

:rolleyes:

Wouldn't want to learn any uncomfortable truths that might upset your ingrained preconceptions now, would you?

:smirks:




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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Ah. I see.

Well, it's good to see you're looking at the issue with eyes wide open...

:rolleyes:

Wouldn't want to learn any uncomfortable truths that might upset your ingrained preconceptions now, would you?

:smirks:




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Nope. Sometimes "the truth" is irrelevant, because there is a much larger picture involved that gets ignored or pushed aside in favor of a more specialized agenda. It is obvious to me that the two authors of this paper have an agenda that is antagonistic towards Israel, and they aren't above making claims that are not supported by any factual information.

It is just the same old tired anti-Israel rhetoric pretending to be scholarly. Some of the things said are truly laughable.

I am mystified by why anyone has a problem understanding why Israel is so important to us, and why it is in our best interests to support them.

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

And why is Israel so important to America ?

Not strategic as you have no bases there, not a calming influence or a local cultural partner in a region of importance to you. They very rarely do what you tell them. They have no oil or control over it's supply. They have no natural resources of note.

They are a good customer of the arms industry, but most of that is subsidised anyway (by the US Govt). Your support for them is one of the Islamic extremists stated reasons for America being a target so it's not like you get loads out of it. Oh yeah, not forgetting that the state of Israel was actually sounded on terrorism in the first place.

However, in the interests of balance I should point out that I have nothing against Israel per se. I am just interested as to why you seem to think they are so important to you ? And as for the article, well, there are always conflicting views but my experience generally shows the truth to be somewhere in the middle.

[Intelligent_Design]

And why is Israel so important to America ?

Not strategic as you have no bases there, not a calming influence or a local cultural partner in a region of importance to you. They very rarely do what you tell them. They have no oil or control over it's supply. They have no natural resources of note.

They are a good customer of the arms industry, but most of that is subsidised anyway (by the US Govt). Your support for them is one of the Islamic extremists stated reasons for America being a target so it's not like you get loads out of it. Oh yeah, not forgetting that the state of Israel was actually sounded on terrorism in the first place.

However, in the interests of balance I should point out that I have nothing against Israel per se. I am just interested as to why you seem to think they are so important to you ? And as for the article, well, there are always conflicting views but my experience generally shows the truth to be somewhere in the middle.


Real simple. Jews are rich. Rich = Power.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

And why is Israel so important to America ?

Not strategic as you have no bases there, not a calming influence or a local cultural partner in a region of importance to you. They very rarely do what you tell them. They have no oil or control over it's supply. They have no natural resources of note.

They are a good customer of the arms industry, but most of that is subsidised anyway (by the US Govt). Your support for them is one of the Islamic extremists stated reasons for America being a target so it's not like you get loads out of it. Oh yeah, not forgetting that the state of Israel was actually sounded on terrorism in the first place.

However, in the interests of balance I should point out that I have nothing against Israel per se. I am just interested as to why you seem to think they are so important to you ? And as for the article, well, there are always conflicting views but my experience generally shows the truth to be somewhere in the middle.


Israel is not a socially primitive, oppressive and rigid country like those around it. Why in hell would we want to encourage those whose ideologies are opposed to what America stands for by abandoning support of Israel?

I still am trying to understand how anyone who claims to be an American, or a supporter of freedom and democracy, can possibly think that it would help anyone for us to provide aid and support to ENEMIES by failing to stand by the one country in the Middle East that most closely shares our ideology?

Don't even begin to think that anything America does will ever change the hatred for our way of life expressed by many in the Middle East. Anyone who believes the Muslim world is EVER going to stop hating the West are deluded. We are hated because of who we are, not because of who we support or our politics, despite what these two would have you believe by some statements in their article.

Yes, the U.S. would like to see the Middle East and elsewhere be composed of democracies, and WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

I'm sorry, it is time to get to the bottom line here. What kind of world do you want to live in? I want to live in a world where the nations of the world cooperate with each other for the common good. Where countries treat their citizens with respect, and grant them the freedoms we believe are basic rights for all.

It might be hard for some to grasp this concept, but it is not a good thing for the world to have nations whose systems of government are based on a religion, and who do not offer the freedoms we cherish to their citizens. I wish to GOD every American could take a trip to the Middle East and see first hand what it is we're dealing with there. I guarantee you that most will come back with a new found respect for what we have here in America and the West, and a lot less admiration and tolerance for the primitive social systems and oppressive religious practices of the countries surrounding Israel.

[Space Tycoon]

Don't even begin to think that anything America does will ever change the hatred for our way of life expressed by many in the Middle East. Anyone who believes the Muslim world is EVER going to stop hating the West are deluded. We are hated because of who we are, not because of who we support or our politics, despite what these two would have you believe by some statements in their article.

Ah, but in the days of Eisenhower and Kennedy, America was loved in the Middle East. They were viewed, rightly, as a bulwark against Soviet encroachment and a promoter of prosperity.

Democracy, not so much. And that's where the trouble began...



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[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Quote-o-matic :

"I'm sorry, it is time to get to the bottom line here. What kind of world do you want to live in? I want to live in a world where the nations of the world cooperate with each other for the common good. Where countries treat their citizens with respect, and grant them the freedoms we believe are basic rights for all."

And do you really beleive that is what the USA is / stands for anymore ? By that I mean the power blocs within her.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Its like this, we live in a messy world, made so by the people of the world. Nobody is all good, and nobody is all bad. That means America is and has always been both good and bad, just like everywhere else.

At some point you have to choose a side. I see the West and America as the civilizations who have advanced socially and technological ahead of the rest of the world. So much so that the quality of lives, and the comforts and opportunities available, have allowed us to become both decadent and enlightened. Because of our advancements, our way of life has given the greatest number of people the best possible lives. This is why so many people want to leave their less advanced societies to live here.

What we have created in America and the West just works better and serves its people more fully, than elsewhere.

This imbalance between the level of development of the West and America and many other parts of the world, has created a cultural and ideological disparity. It is this disparity that is the at the heart of the matter. Like it or not, and for better or for worse, it is inevitable that the course of human social evolution is headed towards one place. That place is a united world. A world where the same levels of development exist everywhere. We are in the process now, and the difficulties between the Islamic and Western worlds are working themselves out naturally. It is a process, and how long it will take is subject to discussion. I just believe that it isn't possible to maintain two or more cultures and universal ideologies indefinitely, that eventually the most successful system is going to suplant all those less successful.

That is how we've developed since the beginning of history. The most successful are the ones who survive. It just isn't logical to believe a less successful civilization is going to continue as such without eventually being absorbed by the greater world around it.

I mean, seriously, you have to come to the conclusion that what matters is the kind of world you want to live in. One where everyone has indoor plumbing, heating and air conditioning, paved roads and plenty of food. A minimum wage earner here has a higher standard of living than 90% of the rest of the people in the world. A very large number of people living in the 3rd world would be very happy to have the same accomodations given skid row bums here.

A better world for all isn't something you wish for, it is something you create.

In a nutshell, "It is them, or us. I vote us."

[Daltons Chin Dimple]

Good answer, and mercifully free of the flag-waving I was expecting. ANd I find myself agreeing on most counts.

I, however, do feel that the Israel question is a valid one and it is disengenious to talk about anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-semitism whenever criticism is levelled at them, a path that is unfortunately always readily taken.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Don't you think Jewish paranoia is well deserved? I mean these people have been crapped on since the beginning. People forget it wasn't just the Nazi's that participated in the holocaust, there were other countries involved in it.

The Jewish people have earned the right in my book, for not only the right to overreact, but the right to trust no one. How do you think they feel when people publish papers openly critical of them? Like they're "loved?"

They've earned my compassion and support, and I'm not the kind of friend who turns around and stabs you in the back. I stick by my friends through thick and thin.

[Intelligent_Design]

Don't you think Jewish paranoia is well deserved? I mean these people have been crapped on since the beginning. People forget it wasn't just the Nazi's that participated in the holocaust, there were other countries involved in it.

The Jewish people have earned the right in my book, for not only the right to overreact, but the right to trust no one. How do you think they feel when people publish papers openly critical of them? Like they're "loved?"

They've earned my compassion and support, and I'm not the kind of friend who turns around and stabs you in the back. I stick by my friends through thick and thin.


I agree.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

There was a book written by a Jewish psychiatrist about his experiences in Auschwitz. Believe it or not, he and others within his dorm actually thought they were lucky that is wasn't worse than it was, because they, at least, were so closely stacked inside that it kept them warm. I hated to tell him, "dude, no, you're in Auschwitz, it ain't ever going to be worse than this!"

[Space Tycoon]

At some point you have to choose a side. I see the West and America as the civilizations who have advanced socially and technological ahead of the rest of the world. At the expense of the rest of the world. Let's try and be honest, shall we? We got where we are by taking advantage of the weaknesses and backwardness of other cultures. By we I mean the West--USA, Canada, Britain, France, Holland etc. I'm not a socialist or anything, I just thought you could use a reality check. We didn't get where we are by behaving like saints.

So much so that the quality of lives, and the comforts and opportunities available, have allowed us to become both decadent and enlightened. Because of our advancements, our way of life has given the greatest number of people the best possible lives. This is why so many people want to leave their less advanced societies to live here. There have always been civilizations who believed, with some justification, that theirs was the pinnacle of human achievement, a model to be emulated by others. China, Egypt, Greece, Rome... they all went in the same direction. America may be the top dog for now, but just wait. There are others waiting in the wings, and they have their own ideas about what social system "gives the greatest number of people the best possible lives."

What we have created in America and the West just works better and serves its people more fully, than elsewhere. Better than elsewhere? You mean this is the best there is? Says who? I don't see the Swiss rushing to abandon their particular system for one based on America's.


This imbalance between the level of development of the West and America and many other parts of the world, has created a cultural and ideological disparity. It is this disparity that is the at the heart of the matter. Like it or not, and for better or for worse, it is inevitable that the course of human social evolution is headed towards one place. That place is a united world. A world where the same levels of development exist everywhere. Inevitable? God, I hope not. What a tragedy that would be. A universally homogeneous world devoid of any real diversity or free range of cultures, religions, and social systems. A bland, commodified shopping mall of states all under one government. The rest of the world won't stand for it. What works --supposedly-- in America will not necessarily be attractive in other parts of the world.


We are in the process now, and the difficulties between the Islamic and Western worlds are working themselves out naturally. It is a process, and how long it will take is subject to discussion. I just believe that it isn't possible to maintain two or more cultures and universal ideologies indefinitely, that eventually the most successful system is going to suplant all those less successful. So basically what you're saying is that the primitive savages will eventually be brought to heel by the noble white man. More or less. As long as we're patient, the "process" will "work itself out naturally." May I ask, why is it not possible to "maintain two or more cultures and universal ideologies indefinitely"? What is wrong with saying to the Muslims, "that is your part of the world, this is ours." Period. No need for unending conflict or war. I just don't understand this crusading mentality, I really do not.

That is how we've developed since the beginning of history. The most successful are the ones who survive. It just isn't logical to believe a less successful civilization is going to continue as such without eventually being absorbed by the greater world around it. What makes you think Western cultures will be the most successful beyond the forseeable future? I predict that the world of our grandchildren may well be ruled by India or China. I hope you will be willing to bow to their superior social system, when it comes down to it. No?




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[Space Tycoon]

Don't you think Jewish paranoia is well deserved? I mean these people have been crapped on since the beginning. People forget it wasn't just the Nazi's that participated in the holocaust, there were other countries involved in it.

The Jewish people have earned the right in my book, for not only the right to overreact, but the right to trust no one. How do you think they feel when people publish papers openly critical of them? Like they're "loved?"

They've earned my compassion and support, and I'm not the kind of friend who turns around and stabs you in the back. I stick by my friends through thick and thin.

The Jewish people certainly have the right to be mindful of their history. They do not have the right to use that fact to bludgeon all critics into silence. Using the Holocaust as a justification for aggressive military actions against their neighbours, and repressive measures against their colonial subjects, is reprehensible. And every ethical Jew knows it.

Why must the Palestinian people pay the price, decade after decade, for Europe's crimes against the Jewish people? Time and again the question is asked, with no convincing answer from Israel or her backers.

If we applied the same standard to other groups of people around the world who've sufferred from genocide, the world would be in flames. Take the Albanian Muslims of Jugoslavia. Anywhere from 100 000 to 200 000 were killed, depending on whom you ask, before the war ended. They are certainly surrounded by people who hate them. Should we arm them to the teeth? Load them up with the best weaponry money can buy, including weapons of mass destruction? How about the Tutsis of Rwanda? The East Timorese? The Armenians? The Ukrainians?

There have been many victims of organized mass murder over the past century, many since World War Two. Political decisions, particularly foreign policy, should be based primarily on pragmatic realism, not guilt. No-one is suggesting cutting off Israel completely. Certainly I am not advocating that. That would be counterproductive and wrong. But at some point, we are going to have to realize that the unusually close relationship between Israel and the US is actually hindering progress in the "War on Terror" we are now locked into.



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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Sorry, but you are twisting the nature of reality to suit your agenda, which appears to be a desire to find fault with both America and Israel rather than place the blame where it belongs. Nothing I said is not based on the lessons of history, and trying to distort human nature into something it isn't by implying others wouldn't want a lifestyle that fills the belly, challenges the mind, entertains the imagination, fulfills the desires and supplies the needs is really avoiding direct contact with the nature of human beings.

That poor islander swept away by the tidal wave last year would have traded places with with a New Orleans resident in a New York heartbeat. You really don't have a clue as to what people who live in a deprived and oppressed state really think, do you?

They want a BETTER FREAKING LIFE for themselves and their children. The average person living in 3rd world countries isn't concerned about ideologies or politics. They don't give a flying F about anything other than surviving each day, and hoping something magical will happen to improve their lots in life.

The intellectual snobs who believe that the United States is this great villain, who has exploited the rest of the world to become rich, are delusional. Those who want to blame the U.S. and allies for the problems of the 3rd world are so intent on finding reasons for that blame, that they completely miss the larger picture, as you are doing.

It is the lesson of history that superior cultures overcome weaker ones, and you cannot even suggest that Western civilization is not the most succesful collection of related cultures on earth, in the entirety of human history. It is also completely logical to assume, again based on the pattern history has provided to us, that we are in the process as a species of becoming more like each other than different from each other, based on shared experiences.

For example, what American is not now much more aware of what the Islamic faith is about, and those aspects of Islamic culture such as the way women have to dress? I'm sure that a Muslim in Baghdad now has more up close and personal information as to what an American is like, too (whether he wanted to or not :)).

The point being that the Western and Islamic worlds are now being forced to deal with each other, in a much more expansive fashion than in the past, and that means each side is being forced to look at the other more intently than in the past.

This is the beginning of change, as with knowledge fear diminishes.

[Space Tycoon]

Nothing I said is not based on the lessons of history, and trying to distort human nature into something it isn't by implying others wouldn't want a lifestyle that fills the belly, challenges the mind, entertains the imagination, fulfills the desires and supplies the needs is really avoiding direct contact with the nature of human beings. North America's life style may "fill the belly"--and then some-- but it is becoming less challenging to the mind and imagination than you might like to think. North Americans are no more aware of how the world operates now than they were before 9/11. In my estimation they are just as withdrawn into their fantasy worlds of pop culture and simple solutions, perhaps more so. The rest of the world knows this.

That poor islander swept away by the tidal wave last year would have traded places with with a New Orleans resident in a New York heartbeat. You really don't have a clue as to what people who live in a deprived and oppressed state really think, do you? Oh that's right Kirk those who disagree with you are all just SO IGNORANT of how other people live and think. What arrogance. That poor islander definitely envies our standard of living, but resents the fact that his way of life must serve that of the great powers.


The intellectual snobs who believe that the United States is this great villain, who has exploited the rest of the world to become rich, are delusional. Those who want to blame the U.S. and allies for the problems of the 3rd world are so intent on finding reasons for that blame, that they completely miss the larger picture, as you are doing. Did I say the US was to blame for the problems of the third world? Did I accuse the US of being some "great villain?" All I said was, the US and other Western powers got where they are in large part, by taking advantage of weaker powers. The strong naturally take advantage of the weak. This is how the game is played. Third World countries like China and India, and others, are learning to play the game for their own benefit. Don't put words in my mouth.

It is the lesson of history that superior cultures overcome weaker ones, and you cannot even suggest that Western civilization is not the most succesful collection of related cultures on earth, in the entirety of human history. So far, yes that is obvious. But as I said, and as you have completely ignored, we are not the first to have made such a claim. Pride goeth before the fall.

It is also completely logical to assume, again based on the pattern history has provided to us, that we are in the process as a species of becoming more like each other than different from each other, based on shared experiences. Show me some examples of how this is so. What is this "process" you keep referring to? Globalization? Why do you feel this is a desirable pattern?

For example, what American is not now much more aware of what the Islamic faith is about, and those aspects of Islamic culture such as the way women have to dress? I'm sure that a Muslim in Baghdad now has more up close and personal information as to what an American is like, too (whether he wanted to or not :)). From what I've seen, most Americans don't know shit about Islam or the people's of the Middle East, and have no intention of learning. I blame the mass media, which is largely dominated with the pro-Israel viewpoint, for whipping up anti-Islamic hyteria at every given opportunity.

The point being that the Western and Islamic worlds are now being forced to deal with each other, in a much more expansive fashion than in the past, and that means each side is being forced to look at the other more intently than in the past. No, it means that the West is being brainwashed to view every Muslim as a potential enemy or terrorist, much as large sections of the Muslim world are brainwashed to view America as the "Great Satan."




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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

You've fallen into a common trap in reasoning. You think you know what others believe and feel, and know, without a shred of any kind of actual factual evidence to support your claims. I know I made similar assertions, but mine are based on viewing interviews conducted with people in the areas hit by the Tsunami, and by my own personal experience with processing requests by people in 3rd world areas for entry into the U.S. I read thousands of letters from people BEGGING for the opportunity to come here, and how PROUD they would be to become Americans, and HOW MUCH THEY LONGED FOR A BETTER LIFE.

You said the following:

"North America's life style may "fill the belly"--and then some-- but it is becoming less challenging to the mind and imagination than you might like to think. North Americans are no more aware of how the world operates now than they were before 9/11. In my estimation they are just as withdrawn into their fantasy worlds of pop culture and simple solutions, perhaps more so. The rest of the world knows this"

You are not only speaking for THE REST OF THE WORLD, as if YOU actually KNOW what everyone else on earth believes and thinks, you are also making a statement claiming to KNOW that NORTH AMERICANS have no more awareness of how the world operates. I mean, seriously, you have absolutely no facts or evidence that supports either of these assertions. And I disagree with these assertions as well, but I can, and you really need to consider this concept, ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF.

More examples of opinions without any supporting facts:

"Oh that's right Kirk those who disagree with you are all just SO IGNORANT of how other people live and think. What arrogance. That poor islander definitely envies our standard of living, but resents the fact that his way of life must serve that of the great powers."

And you know that the islander resents the fact that his way of life must serve that of the great powers? How do you know this, you talked to him? I mean, come on, you are completely projecting your own prejudices onto others, thinking they feel as you do.

More:

"So far, yes that is obvious. But as I said, and as you have completely ignored, we are not the first to have made such a claim. Pride goeth before the fall."

And what "claim" is it you think I'm making? And who, besides me, made this same claim, whatever it is since you say I'm not the first? If you believe my "claim" is that America is better than the rest of the world, and should impose its will on everyone, like Nazi Germany and others, then I'm not making myself clear. My "claim" is that Western civilization is, in EVERY SINGLE MEASURABLE WAY, and you can look up the stats yourself, the most successful in recorded human history. That is just a fact and isn't subject to debate as the ACTUAL DATA supports the claim.

I harbor no ill feelings about any of this, I just believe you make the same mistakes in reasoning that many make. You really believe you can speak for other people, and that you can make declarations that are actually based on your own subjective perception than any actual hard factual data.

I used to believe I knew what other people were thinking, too.

[Space Tycoon]

First of all, I don't see what any of this has to do with the Israel Lobby and US foreign policy, which is the title of this thread. Way to divert attention from the topic at hand. So you've read some letters by people who want to come to America and think that it's the greatest country in the world. Super. What exactly would you expect them to write, in order to gain admission into the country? "Gee, I don't think much of your country, Mr. Kirk, but I need a job, and those social programs sound good too." I think you're naive.

I could, if I had time, find numerous testimonials from people who HATE America, hate the West, and yearn for it's downfall. Many of those people are in this country as well, Kirk. What's your point? Even if America does offer some material advancements, since when did man live by bread alone?

You are not only speaking for THE REST OF THE WORLD, as if YOU actually KNOW what everyone else on earth believes and thinks, you are also making a statement claiming to KNOW that NORTH AMERICANS have no more awareness of how the world operates. I mean, seriously, you have absolutely no facts or evidence that supports either of these assertions. What facts have you brought to the discussion? NOTHING. Other than some ultra-patriotic boasting and some correspondence with people telling you exactly what you want to hear? I've spoken with many people myself, from other countries, many of whom are extremely disappointed with the way American has behaved in recent years, to say the least.

And you know that the islander resents the fact that his way of life must serve that of the great powers? How do you know this, you talked to him? I mean, come on, you are completely projecting your own prejudices onto others, thinking they feel as you do. It's a pretty safe bet most of the people of the third world, including your pathetic islander, resent American power, rightly or wrongly. If you can't see this then I can't help you. It really is painfully obvious. I'm not "projecting" anything onto anyone. It's there for all to see.

And what "claim" is it you think I'm making? And who, besides me, made this same claim, whatever it is since you say I'm not the first? If you believe my "claim" is that America is better than the rest of the world, and should impose its will on everyone, like Nazi Germany and others, then I'm not making myself clear. That's right, act as though you have no clue what my point is, instead of answering the question. Did I compare America to Nazi Germany? Did I even mention Nazi Germany? Where the hell did you get that? Why do people feel the need to bring the Nazis into practically every discussion about politics, to punctuate some point they're trying to make? What justifies that hyperbole?

Your point was that the world is in the midst of an "inevitable" "process" of becoming more or less the same, in every way. And furthermore, since Western Civilization is the Greatest Thing Ever, you seem to feel that everyone will eventually fall in line and follow our example. You just don't seem to understand human nature.

Again, I must commend you, you've done an excellent job of changing the subject from Israel to... whatever it is you're on about.

You never answered my question. Should we arm the Bosnians, or the Tutsis, or the Armenians to the extent that we have armed the Israelis? Or any other group that has sufferred from genocide in the 20th Century? If not, then why not? Why is it in our national interest to make sure Israel receives special treatment? What do we get out of the deal?




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[omicron]

So basically what you're saying is that the primitive savages will eventually be brought to heel by the noble white man. More or less. As long as we're patient, the "process" will "work itself out naturally." May I ask, why is it not possible to "maintain two or more cultures and universal ideologies indefinitely"? What is wrong with saying to the Muslims, "that is your part of the world, this is ours." Period. No need for unending conflict or war. I just don't understand this crusading mentality, I really do not.

The problem is that that doesn't work for radical Islam and other movements. I would LOVE if people would just let others be, but they won't. That's the problem I had with people who want the US to get out of Iraq. We could leave every country in the world and go strict Isolationist, and still the crazy bastards out there would stil want to destroy the US and Western countries. You can't win.

Omi

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

First of all, I don't see what any of this has to do with the Israel Lobby and US foreign policy, which is the title of this thread. Way to divert attention from the topic at hand. So you've read some letters by people who want to come to America and think that it's the greatest country in the world. Super. What exactly would you expect them to write, in order to gain admission into the country? "Gee, I don't think much of your country, Mr. Kirk, but I need a job, and those social programs sound good too." I think you're naive.

I could, if I had time, find numerous testimonials from people who HATE America, hate the West, and yearn for it's downfall. Many of those people are in this country as well, Kirk. What's your point? Even if America does offer some material advancements, since when did man live by bread alone?

What facts have you brought to the discussion? NOTHING. Other than some ultra-patriotic boasting and some correspondence with people telling you exactly what you want to hear? I've spoken with many people myself, from other countries, many of whom are extremely disappointed with the way American has behaved in recent years, to say the least.

It's a pretty safe bet most of the people of the third world, including your pathetic islander, resent American power, rightly or wrongly. If you can't see this then I can't help you. It really is painfully obvious. I'm not "projecting" anything onto anyone. It's there for all to see.

That's right, act as though you have no clue what my point is, instead of answering the question. Did I compare America to Nazi Germany? Did I even mention Nazi Germany? Where the hell did you get that? Why do people feel the need to bring the Nazis into practically every discussion about politics, to punctuate some point they're trying to make? What justifies that hyperbole?

Your point was that the world is in the midst of an "inevitable" "process" of becoming more or less the same, in every way. And furthermore, since Western Civilization is the Greatest Thing Ever, you seem to feel that everyone will eventually fall in line and follow our example. You just don't seem to understand human nature.

Again, I must commend you, you've done an excellent job of changing the subject from Israel to... whatever it is you're on about.

You never answered my question. Should we arm the Bosnians, or the Tutsis, or the Armenians to the extent that we have armed the Israelis? Or any other group that has sufferred from genocide in the 20th Century? If not, then why not? Why is it in our national interest to make sure Israel receives special treatment? What do we get out of the deal?




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Look, you have no actual facts available to you to be able to back up any of your claims regarding what other people in the world think of America, other than your own opinion as to what they think. The declarative statements you make have no factual evidence to support them, and they are supposition only. It is ludicrous, and only highlights your own complete and utter bias towards America. You hate America, so you are projecting that hatred as existing within others, without knowing this is true.

I can only suggest that you go to the places you believe hate America and both find out why, and find out if this is so. Until you do this, you cannot back up anything you are saying.

You also do not appear to understand how reality works, you've ignored, completely, all of the history of the world up to this point. There is a pattern, if you haven't noticed. All I am doing is projecting that history will continue to evolve as it always has, and that the strong will absorb the weak ultimately. That is the way of things, like it or not.

A system that offers people a more equitable chance for personal success, and allows people the freedom to be themselves, is not only a more successful system, it is a system that is desirable by any and every clear thinking person. The only people who would be opposed to such a system would be someone who has a desire to control others, and believes they know what is best for everyone else.

Explain to me, please, why you think Western culture isn't a better way than not, and just what do you think would better serve the world? We can no longer separate ourselves as we have in the past, for very obvious and tangible reasons. Like it or not, the world is entering a phase where a more symbiotic relationship between nations is necessary in order to support the needs of the people of the earth.

You simply don't seem to have any understanding that the world cannot ultimately exist successfully without finally learning to cooperate with each other on a global basis. This means that the things that work for the greater good must supersede those things that don't work.

It is obvious to me that you do not understand what drives societies, and what is ultimately more important. What is most important is that life be given the best chance for success, which is measured in terms of growth.

Check out the infant mortality rates in the 3rd world versus the West. Now fucking tell me WHY the West doesn't offer the world the best chance for survival of our species?

It is obvious to me that our perspectives are too dissimilar to ever agree here. Which is ok with me.

[Space Tycoon]

The problem is that that doesn't work for radical Islam and other movements. I would LOVE if people would just let others be, but they won't. That's the problem I had with people who want the US to get out of Iraq. We could leave every country in the world and go strict Isolationist, and still the crazy bastards out there would stil want to destroy the US and Western countries. You can't win.

OmiPerhaps it is time for us to redefine what we mean by "victory." Instead of trying to destroy Militant Islam, might we not consider the possibility of an Islamism we can live with? Do business with? Perhaps even peacefully co-exist with, albeit with some tension.

Before you scoff at the idea, consider two things:


First; Not all Islamists are cut from the same cloth. You know full well the ugly face of terrorists like Zarqawi and Zawahiri. They are indeed very dangerous, very unpredictable. But all across the Islamic world we see Islamist movements that are more than willing to work within some sort of constitutional, democratic framework. Ballots rather than bullets. They may share many of the goals and views of those we call terrorists, but the difference is the process.

Examples are the current government of Turkey (which is both fundamentalist and democratic) and even Hamas. Yes, Hamas. As much as I am repulsed by their tactics of targeting civilians, I have to say part of me was inspired by their political victory last January. Perhaps this is the beginning of detente between the Israelis and Arabs. Perhaps not.


Second; for over two generations, Americans lived with the threat of nuclear annihilation at the hands of fanatical ideologues. The Soviet Union had about 30,000 warheads aimed directly at our cities--even Canadian cities. I believe they were willing to use them, if it came down to it. They certainly were willing to sacrifice themselves by the millions in war. The USSR was a state ruled, like many in the Middle East, by terror. They promoted terror, revolution and expansionism virtually everywhere, in every region.

And yet, neither the US nor it's allies ever directly attacked Russia or it's many satellites. Instead, we played a long game of warfare by proxy, using espionage, insurgency, counter-insurgency, and eventually even diplomacy to bring West-East relations to where they are now-- not perfect but a hell of a lot better than we all feared they might end up. We knew that Communism as an ideology and a movement lacked any real spirit, so we waited for it to peter itself out.

Who's to say we can't wait out the current storm of militance in the Islamic World? I'm not saying ignore threats to Americans or American allies. By all means, secure the borders. But accept the fact that Islam, in all of it's various permutations, is a reality that we are going to have to live with.

What we should be asking is, how can we make it work for us? Until recently, America had a great talent for turning both potential and real enemies into allies and even friends. I say, let us return to that tradition and end this pointless, destructive conflict.




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[Space Tycoon]

It is obvious to me that our perspectives are too dissimilar to ever agree here. Which is ok with me.

Fine by me too. You keep repeating yourself, droning on and on about anything and everything except the actual subject at hand. I have concluded that you choose not to answer my rather reasonable questions because you cannot.

Do you really think I couldn't find examples, links to back up my arguments if I wanted to? I've done so before, in our other debates. People who read my posts over the years--even the people who hate me--would agree, if there's one thing I'm good at, it's finding things online. Politics, science, half-naked babes...if it's out there I can get it.

Though I never did get those lingerie pics of Kimberly Guilfoyle-Newsom. :ohwell:

I'm just not going to bother because you seem to be one who only sees what they want to see. Fine, have it your way. Life is short.

There is one thing, though:
You hate America, so you are projecting that hatred as existing within others, without knowing this is true. That hurts.

I love America and Americans. My father is an American from St. Louis Missouri who came to Canada in the 1950's. My paternal side of the family still live there, as well as other places in the US. I have travelled all over the continental US and met many fine American citizens whom I consider good people, including some on this board. I often am called upon to defend your country's good name when I hear some snivelling anti-American sentiments being delivered by some of my less-enlightened countrymen.

I am very concerned about the direction America has taken over the past few decades. I don't believe it is healthy for the American people or the rest of the world. It's like if you have a friend or a relative who is committed to wreck their life, you don't just look the other way, you confront them. You have to deal with the fact that Washington truly has "crossed the Rubicon" and shifted from a constitutional republic to a full-blown empire, with all the headaches and problems that entails.

No nation can be both a free country and an empire. You can either be one or the other. As your next-door neighbours, whose own sons are now dying for your imperial war, it is very much our business what America does throughout the world.



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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

I think that what you and those who have issue with America and its policies fail to take into account, is that we consider what happen on 9/11/01 to be an act of war. Declared against us by a foreign ideology that we view as insane, dangerous, and evil.

The world changed fundamentally after WWII, with the United States more or less forced into the role of putting the world back together afterwards. From that point forward we have been involved in protecting freedom and standing guard against tyranny. For Hitler demonstrated what happens when good people stand by and do nothing.

I have been around long enough to actually notice history repeating itself, and the lessons of WWII are that people like Hitler aren't unique, they come along all the time, and unless someone is vigilant, the same sort of tyranny will happen again. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban represent that sort of evil.

However, I understand those who believe America is acting as an imperialist power, bent on world domination. Invading places tends to bring out that that sort of feeling. We've handled the situation badly in the aftermath of our military actions, without a doubt, but it isn't over yet. In the end our troops will no longer be present in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the people there will be in charge of their own collective fate. We aren't taking these places over and turning them into puppet satellites.

America responded to a direct attack, and if 9/11 had not have happened, we probably would not have felt as compelled to act as we have.

We're not trying to take over the world.

[Intelligent_Design]

I think that what you and those who have issue with America and its policies fail to take into account, is that we consider what happen on 9/11/01 to be an act of war. Declared against us by a foreign ideology that we view as insane, dangerous, and evil.

Good Vs Evil is not a policy.

From that point forward we have been involved in protecting freedom and standing guard against tyranny. I thought that was the UN's job?

For Hitler demonstrated what happens when good people stand by and do nothing. Who are the good people? Communist Russia? Who may have killed twice as many people as Hitler? I question your opinion of Good people.

I have been around long enough to actually notice history repeating itself, and the lessons of WWII are that people like Hitler aren't unique, they come along all the time, and unless someone is vigilant, the same sort of tyranny will happen again.

Oh, like invading other countries, dropping bombs on innocent people, Torturing innocent people. And attempt to setup puppet governments. I agree that tyranny must be stopped at all cost.


However, I understand those who believe America is acting as an imperialist power, bent on world domination. Invading places tends to bring out that that sort of feeling. Well you can't have imperialism without an invasion.

We've handled the situation badly in the aftermath of our military actions, without a doubt, but it isn't over yet. In the end our troops will no longer be present in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the people there will be in charge of their own collective fate.

We just created a terrorist breeding ground. Just like Saudi Arabia. After we leave they will hang the sign on the Door." Give Us Your tired huddled masses,We will make a Terrorist outta you yet."


We aren't taking these places over and turning them into puppet satellites. HAHA!!! OOOOOOOKKKKKKKK......

America responded to a direct attack, and if 9/11 had not have happened, we probably would not have felt as compelled to act as we have. Wait, did Saddam have anything to do with 9/11?

We're not trying to take over the world. We couldn't if we wanted to. We can't even defeat some tinpot insurgency. How could we ever take out China, Russia, North Korea?

[Space Tycoon]

I have been around long enough to actually notice history repeating itself, and the lessons of WWII are that people like Hitler aren't unique, they come along all the time, and unless someone is vigilant, the same sort of tyranny will happen again. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban represent that sort of evil.

But nowhere near the same threat level or power. No comparison. Neither Saddam nor the Taliban had anything to do with 9/11 or each other, for that matter. Nazi Germany had an ultra modern army, navy and air force. al Qaeda's navy consists of a few speedboats laden with explosives. Their army consists of suicide bombers and gunmen. Their air force consists of hijacked airliners. The media have skillfully convinced a large section of the American public that this is the new Cold War, the new Hitler, the new Pearl Harbour etc. All for motives that are ulterior and have little to do with reducing terror.


However, I understand those who believe America is acting as an imperialist power, bent on world domination. Invading places tends to bring out that that sort of feeling. We've handled the situation badly in the aftermath of our military actions, without a doubt, but it isn't over yet. The situation never should have been brought about in the first place. Even the most hawkish are now saying the US should never have gone in. Occupation wars always go very badly. There are few examples of a Western country occupying an Arab Muslim country and successfully turning the population over to their side. None, as far as I know. They are a stubborn people who need to be contained and watched, and eventually possibly won over. Not bludgeoned into submission. It just does not work that way.


In the end our troops will no longer be present in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the people there will be in charge of their own collective fate. We aren't taking these places over and turning them into puppet satellites. Once the people of Iraq are in charge of their collective fate they will elect leaders who will be even more anti-American and anti-Western than the people we replaced. They will immediately form alliances and business contracts with the countries who opposed the occupation ie., Russia, China, Iran.

The only way to prevent this is to make Iraq a satellite state ruled by an iron fist, which is exactly what we were supposedly trying to stop in the first place.

Afghanistan, as far as I know, is no man's country right now. Hamid Karzai is the mayor of Kabul and little else, and even that requires a heavy troop presence. No foreign nation has ever tamed or pacified the Afghans, and I don't see the US doing so.

No offence.




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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

It is pointless for us to try and turn Iraq and Afghanistan into some kind of satellite nations, and I don't think that is even something we're considering. The point was Saddam was a threat to his neighbors, and his own people, and the Taliban are a bunch of lunatic religious fanatics. Taking them out was in everyone's best interest.

I still struggle to understand what it is, exactly, that you and others expect America to do. We were attacked, we struck back. What the hell did anyone expect to happen? What the hell would you do if your family was attacked?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who hates America is MY ENEMY. And I will treat them accordingly.

[Space Tycoon]

It is pointless for us to try and turn Iraq and Afghanistan into some kind of satellite nations, and I don't think that is even something we're considering. The point was Saddam was a threat to his neighbors, and his own people, and the Taliban are a bunch of lunatic religious fanatics. Taking them out was in everyone's best interest.

The main threat Saddam posed was to his own tortured people, and to a much lesser degree, Israel. The Iran-Iraq War, Desert Storm, and twelve years of sanctions had left that country a wretched, debauched, failed state boiling over with ethnic and religious tension. Like Soviet Russia or Jugoslavia, Iraq would have fallen apart eventually. Even during the height of their power, Iraq has never posed a serious threat to the United States of America. That is a fact, whether you choose to ignore it or not.

Taliban were about as far to the right as it is possible to be, for sure. But there has never been any evidence that they had anything to do with 9/11. I know you're a bear for evidence, perhaps you might share some for us? Also, you have to understand the larger context, where they came from and who they were. The Talib movement was the product of a secret multi-decade program of encouraging, even nursemaiding the growth of Islamic fundamentalism throughout the Middle East and South Asia. As were Hamas and Shi'iah Islam in Iran.

The real threat in the 1960's, 70's, and early 80's was that the ultraleft and the secular nationalists would take power in the region, giving Moscow a serious edge in the Cold War. Can you imagine, all that oil, gas, all that shipping, all in the hands of the Communists? The whole history of our generation would have turned out much differently. So arming the "religious fanatics" made a kind of geostrategic sense. As bad as Taliban were, the Communists were worse.

You should read up on the history of Soviet-backed regime of Najibullah back in the 1980's. Hundreds of thousands killed, tortured, millions more oppressed. All in the name of "progress," of course--but really to create a staging area for the Russians to invade Pakistan and gain an entry to the Indian Ocean and the Gulf. In fact, there are still former communist forces, like the Northern Alliance, and governments like Uzbekistan who are still in business in that part of the world, and still very much tilted towards Russia. They are no better than Taliban, morally speaking. And I believe Russia still has plans to rebuild it's former empire in that region. They're waiting for America to lose it's stomach for empire, so they can return to being the alpha dog in Central Asia. We may yet miss the Taliban someday...


I still struggle to understand what it is, exactly, that you and others expect America to do. We were attacked, we struck back. What the hell did anyone expect to happen? What the hell would you do if your family was attacked? Going after the real culprits would have been a good start. Respecting the sovereignty of nations, using diplomatic means to have the al-Qaeda network's leaders delivered into the hands of American justice or even international justice. Doing as little damage as possible to the ordinary, everyday people of the region, thereby reducing the likelihood of increased terrorist recruitment.

Unfortunately, this was a tough sell while the ruins were smoldering. But as atrocious as 9/11 was, it did not justify the destruction of Muslim population centres or the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Afghans and Iraqis who had nothing to do with it.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who hates America is MY ENEMY. And I will treat them accordingly.Well, since you seem to feel everyone who criticizes America, hates America, you will have your hands full.



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[Asonokirk V 2.0]

I said those who "hate" America. I'm not above criticizing our government. I don't particularly like the fact that we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, as I thought those were no win scenarios, which they are.

The truth is the government wanted to hit back at something, and they came up with what they've done. It was pretty much a knee-jerk reaction.

Governments tend to have a hard time admitting they make mistakes, but if ours would do so, maybe we could start a trend of more responsible governments around the world.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

The main threat Saddam posed was to his own tortured people, and to a much lesser degree, Israel. The Iran-Iraq War, Desert Storm, and twelve years of sanctions had left that country a wretched, debauched, failed state boiling over with ethnic and religious tension. Like Soviet Russia or Jugoslavia, Iraq would have fallen apart eventually. Even during the height of their power, Iraq has never posed a serious threat to the United States of America. That is a fact, whether you choose to ignore it or not.

Taliban were about as far to the right as it is possible to be, for sure. But there has never been any evidence that they had anything to do with 9/11. I know you're a bear for evidence, perhaps you might share some for us? Also, you have to understand the larger context, where they came from and who they were. The Talib movement was the product of a secret multi-decade program of encouraging, even nursemaiding the growth of Islamic fundamentalism throughout the Middle East and South Asia. As were Hamas and Shi'iah Islam in Iran.

The real threat in the 1960's, 70's, and early 80's was that the ultraleft and the secular nationalists would take power in the region, giving Moscow a serious edge in the Cold War. Can you imagine, all that oil, gas, all that shipping, all in the hands of the Communists? The whole history of our generation would have turned out much differently. So arming the "religious fanatics" made a kind of geostrategic sense. As bad as Taliban were, the Communists were worse.

You should read up on the history of Soviet-backed regime of Najibullah back in the 1980's. Hundreds of thousands killed, tortured, millions more oppressed. All in the name of "progress," of course--but really to create a staging area for the Russians to invade Pakistan and gain an entry to the Indian Ocean and the Gulf. In fact, there are still former communist forces, like the Northern Alliance, and governments like Uzbekistan who are still in business in that part of the world, and still very much tilted towards Russia. They are no better than Taliban, morally speaking. And I believe Russia still has plans to rebuild it's former empire in that region. They're waiting for America to lose it's stomach for empire, so they can return to being the alpha dog in Central Asia. We may yet miss the Taliban someday...


Going after the real culprits would have been a good start. Respecting the sovereignty of nations, using diplomatic means to have the al-Qaeda network's leaders delivered into the hands of American justice or even international justice. Doing as little damage as possible to the ordinary, everyday people of the region, thereby reducing the likelihood of increased terrorist recruitment.

Unfortunately, this was a tough sell while the ruins were smoldering. But as atrocious as 9/11 was, it did not justify the destruction of Muslim population centres or the deaths of thousands upon thousands of Afghans and Iraqis who had nothing to do with it.

Well, since you seem to feel everyone who criticizes America, hates America, you will have your hands full.



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I mentioned how history repeats itself earlier? Well, I see Vietnam all over again going on in the Middle East, with much worse results. When will we ever learn?

[Space Tycoon]

When we stop listening to, or voting for, the same people, who basically have the same policies.

Vietnam parallel is fine as far as it goes, but a better one would be the French occupation of Algeria, which occurred around the same time. Or the Israeli experience in Lebanon.

Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, is one of the surest signs of madness.




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