Animation Master Vs. Poser Vs. Maya Vs. Whatever?

[Le Pijon]

I think that technology has changed the way we view tools. I think this has occurred with music tools as well as art tools. Personally, because of how much work they can handle, I tend to think of Bryce and Poser as co-collaborators on my art rather than merely simple tools. As such, I don't try to bury their look entirely but rather include elements that will hopefully add enough distinction to make the work identifiable as my own. Of course, I'm still trying to work it out but I think I get a little closer with each attempt. Still, as an example, I think I could identify Hasdrubal's unretouched Poser work out of a line up of straight Poser pieces (even if it doesn't include his kinky bondage obsessions ) so I think it's possible that one's style can show through without any substantial reworking.
I do think that B has a point about using multiple tools though. I think it's a basic truth to say that the bigger your toolbox, the more effective and varied work you'll be able to produce. Personally, in addition to Bryce, Poser and Photoshop, I've occasionally thrown in wierd little bits using programs like Fractal Draw and Power Goo but I think the key in using different tools is just producing a consistent overall style wthin the image.

[WC]

I've also used a bit of 3D Max as well for certain shapes/ vehicle type things. I'm not fully used to putting together a full vehicle and then rendering it, but I could (could being the operative word because it's been a while since I've used it and I don't know if I still can) arrange them in a certain order to look like something and then do the rest in photoshop. I was wanting to get into Maya too but I don't think I ever did.

As for Hasdrubal's kinky bondage pieces - you know, in the Spider-Woman comic from the 1970s, especially early in run, there was a lot of that. In practically every issue Jessica Drew would get her costume torn and would be tied up or bound with chains etc. If those were to be done, that would make it actual scenes from the comic rather than mere fantasies.

I think artistic style comes partly from composition and certain artistic choices one makes among other things, which I would imagine one would do even in Poser as well as photoshop.

[Le Pijon]

Ahhh, glad to see you taking this conversation to the next logical place, WC; modeling. I think 3D has actually reached a point where modeling is now no longer a necessity as DAZ offers a huge catalogue of available models, objects, props, scenes, deformers and more at very reasonable and cheap prices. I've also seen alot more of these prefab objects used in people's work lately and consequently, less original modeling. Still, I think there is a great deal of freedom one achieves from learning to do their own modeling. Of course, modeling isn't necessarily easy. There's definitely a learning curve no matter what program you use. While I'm certainly not above borrowing 3D objects from elsewhere, I do alot of my own modeling too. Of course, like the rest of my ghetto software, I've used the cheap and outdated Ray Dream Studio to do some of my extra modeling although I've really grown to enjoy modeling in Bryce. As you may have already figured, I was a HUGE fan of Metacreations before it imploded under the weight of corporate greed and stupidity. I do think that if you know your modeling and texturing, you'll be able to take your 3D art much further. These are essential building blocks of 3D.

[Hasdrubal]

Augmenting Poser with an extra modelling program for mesh building becomes a necessity at the point when you're comfortable with the basics of the program. I use an older version of Carrara for most of my custom meshes.

After experimenting with modelling for a while, I discovered my many hours of practice with Poser's grouping tool had made me a more capable modeller before ever installing Carrara. Grouping points and polygons is an important skill common to rendering and modelling programs.

Poser has its limitations as a modeler, but it's possible to build figures as complicated as Howard the Duck, or Beavis in Poser without a modelling program. All of the geometry you need to make a basic figure is already in the program. It's a challenge to allow yourself to see what's already there.

[Biohaz_Daddy]

Since we are talking modeling I have to mention z-brush. I've attempted to learn a few modeling programs on my own and the learning curve was so steep that I quickly moved on. Not the case with z-brush. I have done two tutorials and was able to learn enough to be able to model some simple objects. I also enjoy resculpting exisiting models for my own purposes. While there are a lot of Poser/Daz props out there, there are also a lot of Poser artists out there using them. After a while you start recognizing the props and textures and facial/body mods, that you see over and over. Modeling your own stuff gives it a unique and personal stamp.

[Le Pijon]

Personally, I'm a little backwards. Poser sat collecting dust on my shelf for the longest while I was busy learning modeling. Spline modeling, mesh manipulation, extrusion envelopes, complex deformers, boolean operations, etc... I've done my fair share of modeling. Of all of the techniques, I've found Bryce's organic modeling the easiest and most intuitive for me. If you're unfamiliar with it, it works alot like bump mapping - you map onto a flat plane in greyscale, white represents the highest point and black represents either the lowest point or empty space. This allows you to simply draw your own 3D shapes. Of course, Bryce's 3D "painting" tools are a bit crude but there's ways around that too. I recently picked up Hexagon and quickly put it back down! It's complex enough that I'm really gonna need some spare time to figure out how to use it effectively. I am very much curious about Carrera, which is in many ways the next generation of tools after Ray Dream Studio. I'm psyched to hear that Z-Brush is easy to use too!! The images I've seen created with it are amazing! It's definitely something I'd like to pick up and learn in the near future. I think it might have been MXHaunted who did an amazing Venom piece in the DCG with Maya and Z-Brush (and he gave most of the credit to Z-Brush!). Resculpting is an interesting technique too. On my Hawkman pic, he's fighting a giant dinosaur... I figured I could get out of work on this easy by downloading a free T-Rex model off the web. I manged to find one that looked usable unfortunately my outdated version of Bryce (4) wouldn't allow me to import it so I tried a large version of Poser's Raptor. It had all the menace of an oversized gecko so I pulled it apart in Bryce, resized and proportioned everything and put the limbs on a more T-Rex like area of the body. I had to create a new head from scratch. It probably would have looked better if I'd modeled the whole T-Rex but who's got that kinda time?! While I personally don't feel modeling is necessary anymore, I'd be lost without it, myself. It would make me crazy to have to shop around for every piece in my scenes also I agree with Biohaz_Daddy that with everybody using the same pieces, they become easily recognizable and pieces tend to look a whole lot less fresh and original when one becomes dependent on them.

[Hasdrubal]

Scott Ayers has nice free dino models. Here's a link to click on.


http://www.lilwolff.com/Free/ScottModels.html

You should be able to export the geometry into Bryce and other programs without too much difficulty.

Curious Labs had a similar group of dinos for free, but are now offered for sale on the Frontier sales site if you have commercial projects in mind.

I often think of recycled 3-D props, sets, costumes, vehicles, and figure actors, as my own private movie studio within Poser's library. I'm not sure one should obsess over recycling the same item occasionally. It used to be routine for movie directors to recycle the same sets, props, and actors without impairing the value of their work. Look at some of Roger Corman's Edgar Allen Poe series movies starring Vincent Price with the same sets in every movie.

[Biohaz_Daddy]

I think more in terms of individual 2d images. I am not an animator, and am barely a novice at 3d. So it's important to me that my images are uniquely my own. Poser helps, but it has a distinct look, and a tempting lure to rely on it too much in creating an image.

I guess I am saying I can see your point Has

[Le Pijon]

Thanks for the link to the dino models, Has. Very cool Your view of use of stock models as being like a movie set is a great point that really rings true to me. I've made the analogy of 3D scenes to movie sets to a number of friends when describing the workings of 3D art. There are alot of strong parallels between the two.
I think the different views everybody's presented are quite interesting. It shows a real variety of approaches to the medium. I do think that 3D artists and 2D artists often approach the medium from different perspectives. I think that 3D art involves a lot of left brain activity while 2D art more often tends to draw from the brain's right hemisphere. I've kinda felt this conflict within myself at times, having been trained in traditional 2D and now attempting 3D after a long hiatus. On one of my pieces, I really studied up, read lots of books and manuals and tried alot of new techniques. In the end, I made some real technical breakthroughs but the piece ended up being quite lackluster. I tried reworking it and fixing it in a few different ways and while I made modest improvements, the picture was fundamentally flawed as a result of me forgetting all that right brain stuff I'd learned about what makes a good picture and concentrating too much on the technical side. I'm probably not explaining this well :? but I just think 2D and 3D artists sometimes look at things differently.

[Biohaz_Daddy]

I think you are in the right neighborhood LP. It's one of the reasons I like the sound of a cinematic approach for poser and 3d image programs. Oftentimes images created on fan sites from these softwares are not planned out and look more or less like either a practice piece or a tech demo. I am always struck by how often I see fully framed figures captured on a camera angle parallel to the horizontal. Very little forethought seems to go into composition, mood, or camera angle. I believe it's a natural by product of learning such a highly technical medium. I think the truly 3d artists (I'm just a poser ) would benefit from an approach that plans out the image much like they do in film. Do a storyboard type pre-planning image, pick out costumes and props, plan lighting, camera angle and cropping... all that stuff seems right at home in 3d generated 2d art.