Middle East Discussion

[Space Tycoon]

Candidate Paul assigns reading to Giuliani

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Longshot Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul on Thursday gave front-runner Rudy Giuliani a list of foreign-policy books to back up his contention that attacks by Islamic militants are fueled by the U.S. presence in the Middle East.

"I'm giving Mr. Giuliani a reading assignment," the nine-term Texas congressman said as he stood behind a stack of books that included the report by the commission that examined the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001.

Giuliani was mayor of New York when Islamic militants slammed two commercial airliners into the World Trade Center, a role that has vaulted him to the front of the Republican presidential pack despite his liberal social positions.

"I don't think he's qualified to be president," Paul said of Giuliani. "If he was to read the book and report back to me and say, 'I've changed my mind,' I would reconsider."

Paul advocates a limited U.S. foreign policy, including an end to the war in Iraq and a reduction in troop levels abroad.

Paul said he was unfairly attacked during last week's debate by 10 Republican presidential hopefuls, when Giuliani dismissed his contention that U.S. policies in the Middle East had contributed to the attacks in New York and Washington.

"I don't think I've ever heard that before, and I've heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11th," Giuliani said to wild applause.

A spokeswoman for Giuliani derided Paul's latest comments.

"It is extraordinary and reckless to claim that the United States invited the attacks on September 11th," Maria Comella said in an e-mail.

"And to further declare Rudy Giuliani needs to be educated on September 11th when millions of people around the world saw him dealing with these terrorist attacks firsthand is just as absurd."

OUTSIDE THE MAINSTREAM

Paul barely registers in opinion polls of Republicans hoping to win their party's nomination to contest the November 2008 presidential election.

An obstetrician-gynecologist from the Houston area, Paul frequently strays far outside the Republican mainstream.

He voted against the Iraq war resolution in 2002 and has proposed abolishing the Homeland Security Department and diminishing the Federal Reserve. His 1988 bid for president as the Libertarian candidate drew just slightly more than 400,000 votes nationwide.

Paul said it was irresponsible of Giuliani and other leaders to not examine the motivations of al Qaeda and other radical Islamic groups.

Among the books on Paul's reading list were: "Dying to Win," which argues that suicide bombers only mobilize against an occupying force; "Blowback," which examines the unintended consequences of U.S. foreign policy; and the 9/11 Commission Report, which says that al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was angered by the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia.

Another book on the list was "Imperial Hubris," whose author appeared at the press conference to offer support for Paul.

"Foreign policy is about protecting America," said author Michael Scheuer, who used to head the CIA's bin Laden unit. "Our foreign policy is doing the opposite."

A Giuliani campaign official could not confirm whether he had read any of the books on Paul's list.

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[rappites]

Can I ask a favor from all of you that are really discussing this topic? Can you break it down to lamans terms for me if anything serious is going on.







Just joking. It is like I am asking you all to give the cliff notes on a history book.

[Gentlemen Death]

That can be arranged.....

[whitetemplar78]

Prisoner abuse at Guantanamo bay and Abu Ghraib, which contravene the Geneva Convention to which the US is a signatory;


The Geneva Convention, only covers UNIFORMED foreign personal, see when I was in the military when we were issued our ID's on the back, there was a Geneva Code letter, mine was "I" these letters tell what part of the convention we are covered, and how much a foreign government is allowed to do to us, for information, or other Intel. The terrorists that have been captured are not covered under those guidelines, and in a way, that allows the U.S. Government to do what they want to them since they are considered outside the laws governing these situations, in fact the way most other countries deal with these types of individuals, makes what we do to them look like play time in the park.

Does that make what we have done right?.......no in a way America has always stood as the "good guys" in any conflict, and its hard to appear that way, when things like this tarnish our name. My self on a personal level could care less what happens to these animals, most of these guys would blow up a school of western children in a heartbeat, and wash their hands of it, by claiming it was the will of Allah. I have lost several friends to this conflict, to men much like the detainees that we have right now, so one can say that I have a biased view of the problem, no doubt that’s right, but im an Old Testament kind of person....an eye for an eye......

[Space Tycoon]

Originally Posted by whitetemplar78

The Geneva Convention, only covers UNIFORMED foreign personal, see when I was in the military when we were issued our ID's on the back, there was a Geneva Code letter, mine was "I" these letters tell what part of the convention we are covered, and how much a foreign government is allowed to do to us, for information, or other Intel.

So you'd be okay with allowing civilian "contractors," ie., mercenaries, to be exempt from the code? They're not uniformed personell...

...in fact the way most other countries deal with these types of individuals, makes what we do to them look like play time in the park.

Ah yes. The old, "at least we're not as bad as the terrorists" defence. Some of us think we should set higher standards. Today it's "terrorists," tommorrow it could be anyone the government considers subversive-- including you or I.

but im an Old Testament kind of person....an eye for an eye......

Old Testament? Maybe you should join the IDF...





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[SinisterPryde]

There are no "good guys" in a war. There are soldiers on both sides shooting at each other because their commanders told them to.

Since I am so politically naive, could someone tell me who or what we are fighting now? It was my understanding that after 9/11 we were going after a terrorist cell lead by Bin Laden. Then, for some reason, we decide to tag Hussein (who needed to be brought down, no doubt) and we seem to be fighting a group larger than a terrorist cell (unless I am mistaken, its seems we're fighting someone's army.

I am not attacking opinions or trying to make a statement. It is just clear from reading this board that there are things going o0n that I don't know enough about to comment on.

[whitetemplar78]

So you'd be okay with allowing civilian "contractors," ie., mercenaries, to be exempt from the code? They're not uniformed personell...

Mercenaries they are, lets be blunt on that point, when you fight for money only, your taking a risk, if your captured by the US more then likely you'll be treated humanly, and in time released, if your captured by another country...your chances aren't as good, since your not protected under any type of International law at all....they are adults, people like that know what they are doing its part of the risk they run, so to answer your question, no they should not be covered under the Geneva Convention.

Ah yes. The old, "at least we're not as bad as the terrorists" defence. Some of us think we should set higher standards. Today it's "terrorists," tommorrow it could be anyone the government considers subversive-- including you or I.

Mmmmmm......well we're not, but that’s another point. What I meant though, is im tired of people jumping all over America's back at just the mere rumor of us mistreating captured terrorists, when countries like China, Burma (cause I can't remember how to spell its new name...sorry..lol) Indonesia, Sudan, Niger, Chad, Senegal, Angola.....hell the list goes on, commit crimes against combatants, and POW's alike, and nery a word, article, or eyebrow is raised.........the type of people we are fighting in this war, are zealots, you know that Space, hell your one of the smartest guys I’ve seen in most blogs, so you know that they will stop at nothing to win against whoever they perceive as the enemy, be it us, or a Sunni, or so on. Fighters of this ilk will stop at nothing to win a war, and never give up, unless their dead, my God, the roots of this conflict in Islam was hundred of years ago when Mohammad died with a clear cut Heir.....and here we are today, with Islam on the brink of civil war, and the only thing holding it back is us sitting smack dab in the middle of this whole mess with our Army.

Can you not see the strain this puts our intelligence people under??.....the need to get intel, to help protect our country, and troops at all cost?...we can't forget that they are American's like many of us on this board and want to help our country as much as anyone, hell that’s no doubt why they do what they do, but they have to deal with a enemy that’s willin to die before giving in.......this creates a perfect setting for misdeeds to occur.

Old Testament? Maybe you should join the IDF...

LOL, ok this one had me laughing I’ll admit, since im the most unreligious person you'll meet

[tstone]

This thing was a fiasco from the get-go, from ill chosen policy violating principles we say we believe in as a nation, to policy based on fantasies entertained by the policy makers and lies foisted on the public.

But we are there and a pullout at this point would be more disasterous than sticking it out longer and trying to make it work.

Timetables? No. Benchmarks? Yes!

Light a fire under the fat asses of the Iraqi Parliamentarians who wanted to vacation for a month while there was a war on, with Americans and their own people dying in the street daily.

Talk about your devil and the deep blue sea. We must try to make this work. But never forget the no good bastards who got us here and the no good policy they got us into.

[Space Tycoon]

Originally Posted by whitetemplar78

Ah yes. The old, "at least we're not as bad as the terrorists" defence. Some of us think we should set higher standards. Today it's "terrorists," tommorrow it could be anyone the government considers subversive-- including you or I.

Mmmmmm......well we're not, but that’s another point. What I meant though, is im tired of people jumping all over America's back at just the mere rumor of us mistreating captured terrorists, when countries like China, Burma (cause I can't remember how to spell its new name...sorry..lol) Indonesia, Sudan, Niger, Chad, Senegal, Angola.....hell the list goes on, commit crimes against combatants, and POW's alike, and nery a word, article, or eyebrow is raised.........

Excuse me? I see denunciations of those very countries on a regular basis, nearly every day, in the world press. Those countries are indeed rampant abusers of human rights. And not incidentaly, many of those countries are close allies of the United States, and recipients of considerable financial and military aid. More than a few of them actually do the torturing for us. Off the books.

If America is to change the world and keep the flame of liberty alive, she must do so first by example. That means not getting lazy, or sloppy, or living down to the standards of savage third world tyrannies.

Can you not see the strain this puts our intelligence people under??.....the need to get intel, to help protect our country, and troops at all cost?...we can't forget that they are American's like many of us on this board and want to help our country as much as anyone, hell that’s no doubt why they do what they do, but they have to deal with a enemy that’s willin to die before giving in.......this creates a perfect setting for misdeeds to occur.

Ask anyone knowledgeable in the gathering of good intelligence, and they will tell you that 99% of the best work is accomplished through subtle professionalism. Research, paid informants, studying the object of interest. Not Jack Bauer-style cruelty. Such tactics accomplish very little useful results, if any. People will say and do anything under duress.

...zealots, you know that Space, hell your one of the smartest guys I’ve seen in most blogs...

Thanks, but I'm not that smart, I just have good sources. And a lot of time on my hands. Too much, if it comes down to it... :OhWell:







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[tstone]

Originally Posted by Space Tycoon

Excuse me? I see denunciations of those very countries on a regular basis, nearly every day, in the world press. Those countries are indeed rampant abusers of human rights. And not incidentaly, many of those countries are close allies of the United States, and recipients of considerable financial and military aid. More than a few of them actually do the torturing for us. Off the books.

If America is to change the world and keep the flame of liberty alive, she must do so first by example. That means not getting lazy, or sloppy, or living down to the standards of savage third world tyrannies.

A-frakkin'-MEN, brother...