Middle East Discussion

[Al-Dog]

I was thinking we could use an open ended thread to discuss the various aspects of the Middle East situation.

This editorial was in last Sunday’s edition of my local paper.

Iraq exit strategy's only halfway there

Originally Posted by Thomas Friedman

I'm glad Democrats are keeping the pressure on President Bush for a withdrawal date from Iraq. It's the only way to keep him and Iraqis focused on the endgame. But if Democrats really want to be taken seriously on foreign affairs, they need to recognize that they have only half a policy on Iraq. And it's the easy half.

You can't be in favor of setting a date to withdraw from Iraq without also being in favor of a serious energy policy to radically reduce our dependence on oil -- now. To call for withdrawing from Iraq by a set date, no matter what the situation is on the ground there -- without a serious energy plan here -- is reckless. All we would be doing is making ourselves more dependent on an even more unstable Middle East, because any U.S. withdrawal from Iraq is likely, in the short run, to be destabilizing.

The Middle East today is deeply troubled. If we determine that our efforts to tilt that region in a different direction -- by building a decent Iraq -- have failed, then our efforts to minimize our exposure to that region have to begin. But the last thing we can afford to do is walk away from the Middle East militarily while remaining chained to it economically.

More important, if Iraq totally fails, but we still believe it is in our interest to promote reform in the Middle East, a serious U.S. energy policy that permanently brings down the price of oil -- by developing scalable alternative energies -- is actually the best Plan B there is. You will see reform in the Arab-Muslim world only when regimes there can't survive just by extracting oil, but have to extract the talents of their people by educating, empowering and connecting them.

[SinisterPryde]

It seems that our Government is still focusing on maintaining a status-quo. Not to mention, too many politicians are owned by big oil to come up with an alternative energy source. No, our reliance on oil as an energy source will not stop until every last drop has been squeezed from the Earth.

[Senormac]

There is TONS of oil......TONS. I don't see the problem as being searching for alternative fuel sources.......its making the people who are standing in the way of us getting the oil that is here already......GET OUT OF THE WAY !!

I did hear something this last weekend. It was the possibility that there is a strategy in place, to buy up.......and keep using mid east oil till they run out. Then we would have to start bringing up more oil or come to a screeching halt. I don't think thats too good of a plan myself....since we have no idea when them running out will happen. Plus, while we are buying from them they are collecting tons and tons of MONEY.....which makes them a power player.

[Nostromo]

Good idea. Allow me to contribute this opinion piece from today's on-line edition of
The Economist. N

http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ory_id=9225670

[Space Tycoon]

Guys, don't think for one minute that North America is dependent on the Mideast for it's energy supply. That is a myth, a classic example of the Big Lie that people believe when it is repeated often enough. Truth is, we could get by without it.

The US relies more on Western Hemispheric sources of oil than ME sources, which are relatively minor. However, the economies of East Asia, Europe, and increasingly India are very dependent on it. This will only increase as China and India continue their meteoric industrial rise.

Oil companies are ass-deep in the Mideast, and Central Asia, for precisely this reason. The game has never been about securing lots of cheap oil for Americans' personal use. See the "Gas Prices" thread for evidence of this. It's about controlling the flow of oil at the source. If we didn't get in there, the Russians surely would.

I agree that alternate energy is long past due for being developed and marketed. But that wouldn't suit the purposes of a few billionaire Petrol-igarchs, now would it?

Then there's the Israel factor. Israel's far right wing has always been sympatico with the neo-conservative movement in Washington. When the Bush Administration faced the aftermath of 9/11, the neocons saw their chance and went for it. They've been in the driver's seat ever since the towers fell and have only recently been humbled by scandals and failure.






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[Space Tycoon]

But if Democrats really want to be taken seriously on foreign affairs, they need to recognize that they have only half a policy on Iraq. And it's the easy half.

Well, at least he's right about that.

And ask yourself a simple question:

What have the Democrats actually done to turn this war around since they were elected in November on a strong wave of protest sentiment?

Answer: NOTHING.

They have authorized more funding for Iraq, instead of using their Congrerssional authority granted them under the Constitution to de-fund it.

They have also authorized the use of force against Iran, should that nightmare scenario come to pass. Even the "peace candidates," Obama and Edwards, have stated that "all options are on the table."

Edwards has even recently come out in favour of bringing back conscription!!

And where is the impeachment movement? Isn't it time for the Democrats in Congress to enforce the law and bring this rogue President, and his Svengali-like VP, to justice?


The Bushies may be drunk with power, but the Dems have so far done little except enable this intemperance. The Democrats talk a big game, but their performance, thus far, has been a disappointment.

[Senormac]

Originally Posted by Space Tycoon

And where is the impeachment movement? Isn't it time for the Democrats in Congress to enforce the law and bring this rogue President, and his Svengali-like VP, to justice?.

Ha.....what a joke. The impeachment movement has about as much value as a bowel movement. They got nothin but alot of hot air and hurt feelings, so they try to stir the pot and scrape the sides looking for something with enough clout to actually do something........they got nothin.

Originally Posted by Space Tycoon

The Bushies may be drunk with power, but the Dems have so far done little except enable this intemperance. The Democrats talk a big game, but their performance, thus far, has been a disappointment.

I agree with what the Dems have really done.....and it kinda makes me mad spacey. The Dems talk alot, but upon further investigation it seems to be little more than talk. The part that makes me mad is that they are so "drunk with hate" they have lost focus on the country and the victory. They are self destructive. About Bush being drunk with power.......well , he IS power. Hes the dang president of the United States !!

[Gentlemen Death]

Originally Posted by Senormac

Ha.....what a joke. The impeachment movement has about as much value as a bowel movement. They got nothin but alot of hot air and hurt feelings, so they try to stir the pot and scrape the sides looking for something with enough clout to actually do something........they got nothin.




I agree with what the Dems have really done.....and it kinda makes me mad spacey. The Dems talk alot, but upon further investigation it seems to be little more than talk. The part that makes me mad is that they are so "drunk with hate" they have lost focus on the country and the victory. They are self destructive. About Bush being drunk with power.......well , he IS power. Hes the dang president of the United States !!

I did not want to get into this conversation and will try not too, but what this man said right here makes the most sense i have heard in awhile. And with that said and done, i can leave this thread knowing i have said something, thank you and goodnight.

[Space Tycoon]

Originally Posted by Senormac

Ha.....what a joke. The impeachment movement has about as much value as a bowel movement. They got nothin but alot of hot air and hurt feelings, so they try to stir the pot and scrape the sides looking for something with enough clout to actually do something........they got nothin.

Famous last words...

Unfortunately the President will not be impeached, because that would leave us with Dick Cheney's drunken hand on the nuclear trigger. Unless you took 'em both out at once, which would be the closest thing to a living wet dream I can think of...

Still, I would welcome it. The Bush Administration needs to be brought to justice one way or another. And I don't mean throwing flunkies like "Scooter" Libby to the wolves. You have to go right to the top.

I agree with what the Dems have really done.....and it kinda makes me mad spacey. The Dems talk alot, but upon further investigation it seems to be little more than talk. The part that makes me mad is that they are so "drunk with hate" they have lost focus on the country and the victory...

The victory? I'm curious as to what victory you speak of. The war in Iraq is over. It's lost. There never was a clear objective beyond ending Saddam Hussein's regime, and as such there can be no victory. Q.E.D.

If you're talking about victory against al Qaida, well that moment may have been lost as well, since we are now dealing with a plethora of armed groups all over the world, as opposed to just a relatively small group numbering in the hundreds, as was the case before the war in Iraq.




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[omicron]

Ok Spacey, I'm curious.

What do you think are the reasons behind Bush & Co "power mad, constitution destroying, empire building" actions?

Is it simple imbecilic blundering? Is it a misguided but thoughtful plan? Is is "Emperor Palpatine planning on destroying the Senate and taking over the Galaxy" meglomania?