The Fourth of July Column

Well played, Clerks.

Happy 4th, Kurt!

(and I'm probably buying Thor #1 - JMS hasn't quite hit the "now irrelevant" status of Claremont for me yet)

Wow, Kurt! Well spoken. I've pretty much made my feelings clear on both Civil War and Captain America's Death in my blogs here (if anyone else wants to see them). This is what comes from letting Bendis control your universe.
I say give him a couple of titles and keep him in his own corner.

Gen 13 Best Of A Bad Lot TP $14.99
-Which isn't saying a lot.

New Avengers Transformers #1 (of 4) $2.99
-Are they more than meets the eye?
-I bet Megatron is a Skrull!

Also, I love Gunsmith Cats. Well, the anime, I haven't read any of the manga.

Why why why people are so picky i this world?

I loved Civil War even though the Pro-registration side won. Why are people not liking it? why are people not happy with it?

SinisterPryde says ''This is what comes from letting Bendis control your universe''...

Yeah so, the Marvel universe could not be better at this point. The comics are great, the writting is great (yes a few exceptions but still). I love Bendis, it's great, the Avengers are fun to read (even though the pace is a bit slow but still). I know it's just my opinion but, why aren't people happy with comics these past few years.

Cry babies who are never happy until they get what they want, that's what's hapening here. And all people seem to be doing is bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch. That's what's always hapening here in the world of comics.

the cry babies are never happy, always complaining and always forget that comics are suppose to entertain us, not always go our way or have it written down how we would like it.

Anyway, Kurt, great column, it's true our vision of heroes has changed over the years and unfortunatly, things will get more and more complicated over the years because cry babies will always complain for nothing and the future of comics unfortunatly depends on them cry babies.

Kurt:

Yet another case where your analysis and commentary really cuts to the heart of a complex issue, succinctly and with real clarity.

I have read, and enjoyed, any number of darker-edged, or "more realistic" super hero comics, and enjoyed many of them. I don't see it as "either/or". What I do think is that by using the mainstream Marvel Universe as the place to ask certain questions and to explore certain themes, Marvel has done none of us any favors.

Take the 'star' of Marvel's latest big event - the Hulk. If the Hulk were "real", do we honestly believe that most folks wouldn't see him as a terrifying, horrible monster? Can you imagine the damage, death and injury the Hulk would bring on one of his typical rampages? The morgues and hospitals would be filled to overflowing, people's homes and businesses would be destroyed, city infrastructure would be demolished, etc. Think Hurricane Katrina...over...and over...and over...and over again. Think 9-11.... every couple of weeks. People would be DEMANDING action. They would want the Hulk dead. Finished. Trick him into a one way ride off planet Earth? Folks would throw a ticker tape parade! Hulk comes BACK to Earth? People would be begging the heroes to put him down IMMEDIATELY...

So... all that would be fun to read about..how, exactly?

It isn't that those of us who enjoyed the pre-Civil War MU are simpletons. Its not that we can't deal with reality. Its not that we don't like to be challenged. And it is not that we don't, on occasion, seek out fiction - and comic books - that touch on all those darker or more complex themes. BUT... we enjoyed a mainstream MU in which, yes, a certain artificiality (beyond the superpowers!0 was in efect. Where, LARGELY, collateral damage and widespread suffering were NOT issues, where playgrounds full of kids WEREN'T torched every time Doctor Doom and the FF went at it, etc.

In short, we enjoyed the FUN of seeing larger than life heroes take on larger than life villains in a setting which was just real enough to allow for some drama but not SO real that we had to wallow in suffering and get embroiled in politics and .

Escapist? Maybe so. But fun too.

Shadow

jedibanner, everyone - master of the ad hominem!

----

shadowprime, very well put. I agree completely.

See, now Kurt and shadowprime are saying things so succinctly and hitting all the right notes, you don't have to suffer through me getting out my soapbox.

Thanks again, Kurt, for a great and insightful column.

I actually enjoyed Civil War. I never said that I didn't. I also find the post-CW landscape to be interesting, along with the recent Skrull developments. I also agree with the "other" Shadow up there.

I simply believe that Bendis has a certain way of doing things that, while interesting, should not be applied to an entire universe. Powers would be a better place to explore such moral ambiguity.

Either way you look at it, both Major Universes (Marvel and DC) are trying to establish themselves in a definitive way and there is bound to be some stumbling.

Merin, not too sure what Ad Hominem means, will look it up (somehow I have a feeling it's not nice...could be wrong).

Shadowprime, great comments (these type of comments, I love to read them because at least, it's well written, well though of, great)

I remember once I was speaking with someone here on Mania. I guess it never trully occured to me how different Marvel and DC are until I had that discussion with that person.

Like Shadowprime was talking, it's true if the Hulk was alive (my all time favorite character), he wouldn't last long enough in this grim, dark world of ours we live in. Best exemple, the Ultimates Vol.2 # 3. when the Hulk is put on trial and put to death for sure, regardless if he just saved the world from an alien invasion. that's reality to me, that's what some people in our world would do. That's Marvel, as close as reality as possible. DC on the other hand is not the same. Where I always saw ''heroes'' in Marvel more edgier, more realistic, whoever was speaking to me at the time here on Mania made me understand how different the DC ''heroes'' are, how some people might actually prefer reading heroes with good morals instead of a better identified reasons of their pscychologistic behavior .

As someone said a while back (I think stan Lee said it once), heroes and the world of marvel are as close to our reality as it could be and DC heroes and their world is how OUR world should be.

with DC, it's way more positive, more simpler, more hopefull in DC. The edge is not as cut and dry or as real as in Marvel I think. In the JLA/Avengers latest cross-over, we do see when the Avengers visit the DC world, when they see all the museums and dedications and statues and all that of the DC heroes, you don't have this in Marvel.

The mentallity of Marvel is more real, unfortunatly. Remember the comic Marvel (drawings from Alex Ross)? How real it was to see the Marvel universe from the point of view of humans, how they don't trust the marvels from time to time, how they are happy the heroes saves them and the next day, they are willing to sue them for breaking their fences?

that's why I like Bendis in comics, he brings a reality to our world into the comics of today. It might not be what some people want but it's a reality of our world maybe that some people are afraid to accept.

OUr world has changed dramatically and what we accept, like or hate is more simpler and faster then before.

Anyways, I still prefer Marvel but, doesn't stop me from buying a few DC titles.

Hey, I just looked it up:

ad hominem: Argument ad hominem is the converse of appeal to authority, in which the arguer bases the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. Hence, while an ad hominem argument may make an assertion less compelling, by showing that the person making the assertion does not have the authority, knowledge or position they claim, or has made mistaken assertions on similar topics in the past, it cannot provide an infallible counterargument.

So, this means I don't know what I'm talking about, according to Merin...well, I truly feels like this pretty much proves my points. I described my opinion, gave something to read upon yet you, or some others in the past/present/future just state one phrase and don't describe anything.

I win, who's ad hominem now!!!

Actually, jedibanner, I was referring to your personal attacks as "ad hominem" - an ad hominem attack is when you attack the person instead of their argument -

to finish the wikipedia article you started quoting - "It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument."

instead of disputing the arguments of those you disagree with you simply denegrated them by labelling them all "crybabies" and dismissing anything said "crybabies" say as simply being "bitching" and "whining" and that "they can never be made happy" so, in effect, everyone so ignore what the "crybabies" say.

That is TEXTBOOK ad hominem. Hence why I called you the master. You did it so well.

And if you think all I ever do is post one line and not explain myself, you don't know me at all here.
give this http://www.mania.com/Merin/blog/217.html and then this http://www.mania.com/Merin/blog/228.html a read to see how terse I am usually and how little I give in the way of explanation or example.

This isn't a contest to "win" jedibanner - if you want intelligent discussion of why people like things different ways, dismissing them as "crybabies" who will (paraphrasing now) basically complain no matter what and therefore no one should listen to a thing they have to say - that's definitely not the way for meaningful discourse.

Now hopefully you won't take this as attacks on you, as you have MUCH to say that is worthwhile. Just remove the needless personal attacks and we'll all get along swimmingly. :)

I like your references to the JLA/Avengers series - Busiek in that story shows starkly the difference between the "worlds" of the two major comic companies.

Oh boy, here it goes...

First, when I use the term crybabies (which I will never stop using), I refer to the people who always whine about things and never explain what they mean, they just bitch. Attacking the people directly instead of the argument is the only possibility since there is NO arguments to talk about, only statement.

I'm certainelly not attacking you Merin for what you wrote (or didn't wrote), I'm using the term cry babies because that's most of these blogs are full of. That is the ONLY time I will use name calling to someone because it's frustrating to the people who do want to actually discuss something and I hate it when people call others gay, dumass, asshole and stuff.

I couldn't care less about winning or loosing, I want to send a message that could show a world where people actually start writting a good reason about what they feel about something instead of just bitch.

''Dismissing'' people for being cry babies is like dismissing alcooholics for being in a beer store, you have no choice. IF someone is actually persenting comments, details, informations, links, whatever, THEN and ONLY THEN is it worth the time and effort to discuss something and write or argue about it. Especially if we don't agree with the statements and NEVER would I think, write or lable them as cry babies.

And for the record, it's impossible for all of us to get along swimmingly, if it could, we would not have this debate.

P.S. I don't take this as an attack on me, I take it as a way to spend my time at work and talk about comics with people.

p.s.s. thanks for the reference, I think Busiek did established the 2 differences of both world perfectly. Pity Thor didn't beat the crap out of Superman like he should've.