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Throwing Gas on the Flames: Your Letters

By: Kurt Amacker
Date: Wednesday, April 04, 2007

Last week’s column on the some of the moral quandaries in recent superhero comics generated a couple of interesting e-mails that merit printed responses.  I asked readers to consider the mind-wiping fiasco from DC’s Identity Crisis, Tony Stark’s Machiavellian swindling in Marvel’s Civil War, and the Punisher – the entirety of the character, not a particular story.  In each situation, characters we would otherwise consider heroes made ethically questionable – or, in some cases, indefensible – decisions in the pursuit of the greater good.  I applauded both Marvel and DC for considering the complicated ethical decisions people face every day where, just sometimes, doing the worst thing may look like the best thing.  I also refused to answer the question of whether the ends justified the means in those cases, citing the irrevocable and dire consequences our heroes have experienced afterward.  Regular readers Merin and Joel Handloff actually followed through on what I considered a hypothetical, on-your-own-time experiment and sent their thoughts. 

Before I answer their letters, I want to belatedly acknowledge the passing of Marshall Rogers – an artist best remembered for his defining interpretation of Batman from the late 1970s, written by Steve Englehart.  Rogers worked for Marvel, DC, and Eclipse throughout his career, which spanned two decades.  In 2005, 27 years after their arc in Detective Comics brought readers a darker vision of the Batman, they followed it with the sequel miniseries Batman: Dark Detective.  The two had tentative plans for a third miniseries in the storyline.  Rogers passed away on either March 24th or 25th, with the cause of death yet to be disclosed.  He will be deeply missed. 

Your letters: Joel Handloff writes, “The examples you brought up got some interesting reactions from me.  The Identity Crisis issue I had absolutely no problem with (well, except for using the mind-wipe on Batman).  Honestly and truly, I can't help but think that the classic super-villain, who comes back again and again, who rapes murders and pillages, at some point, gives up some rights.  Yes, this sounds horrific, I know.  I pretty much feel that way in our real-world society.  Perhaps paradoxically, I'm against the death penalty.  Innocent people do, from time to time, get convicted, and we really are able to keep the worst of the worst in prison for the rest of their lives (or effectively so).” 

Well, comics require a significant suspension of disbelief.  In reality, no society would tolerate a career criminal that escaped repeatedly and used magic, high-tech weaponry, or brute force to steal and kill over and over again.  Then again, society would probably lose all faith in the heroes that couldn’t or wouldn’t stop them permanently, one way or another. 

“Further, the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent (however, it might if someone would finally give me the backing to start DTV – all executions all the time, on EVERY FRICKIN' JUMBOTRON IN THE COUNTRY).” 

Somehow, I think good taste would probably prevail over the idea of televised executions.

 

“Anyhow, Dr. Light and his ilk have more blood on their hands than we can possibly imagine.  The genocide in Darfur pales next to them.  And, the prison system can't handle them (which makes no sense whatsoever, except from a purely practical perspective for the writers).  They will get out.  That's all there is to it.  The justice system has failed.  These villains have made it abundantly clear that they have no interest in changing.  They have been given every possible chance.” 

I’ve written a column or two about that in the past.  In reality, there’s no way some of the career criminals in the Marvel and DC Universes would have survived this long – unless we have to assume that both worlds have the most ineffective law enforcement ever.

 

“Would this be a debate if they were, say, vampires?  If not, then in what significant way are they not vampires?  They have powers and abilities beyond mortal men.  They treat humans like animals.  They prey upon us.  They do everything except eat us.  Or if they were White Martians?  Or is it only humans who get a free ride?” 

I think in two shared universes where vampires clearly exist, the heroes would distinguish between Dracula and, say, Dr. Light.  Honestly, I think the altruism that drives most superheroes extends to super-villains.  Most characters outside of the Punisher, Wolverine, and other anti-heroes respect the humanity of even the worst villains.  I think, in their mind, even they can redeem themselves.  And, if they can’t, the heroes believe they shouldn’t stoop to their level.

 

 “That said, the Stark situation wasn't so simple for me, partially because of the raw practicality being imposed on such a large scale.  Part of me feels very much like this is the way to go.  And, actually, the idea of clamping down some controls on superheroes makes a great deal of sense.  I mean, imagine the fits police would have if I ran into a hostage situation, planning on using my vast martial arts abilities to resolve the situation.” 

That’s funny for so many reasons.  But, yes, point taken. 

“Of course, the real problem (which I think is mentioned in The Road To Civil War) is that these restraints weren't put in place earlier.  And, we saw how well prohibition worked.  So, I don't think we can discuss Stark unless we discuss the idea of imposing real world pragmatism like the Superhuman Registration Act into a comic book world.” 

I made this argument a long time ago when I talked about the depictions of law enforcement and the military in Marvel’s and DC’s universes.  Essentially, I stated that both worlds had agencies that will gladly use deadly force to take down an enemy, be it a bank robber with hostages or an enemy combatant.  Super-villains clearly interact with the police and military from time to time.  Thus, I have to wonder why Doctor Octopus hasn’t died in a hail of bullets from NYPD SWAT.  There’s a level of inconsistency that Marvel and DC usually ignore, because they can’t give characters a realistic lifespan.  

“Because, [the SRA] was the first domino.  That level of 'reality' causes Stark to have to take a more real-world, big-picture approach.  It makes the world more black and white, not less.  I'm not sure why that is true, but I am sure of its truthiness.  Oh, and yeah, the war with Atlantis thing was just plain old wrong.  See how simple that was?” 

I don’t think anyone’s arguing for that aspect of Stark’s plan.

 

“It’s these sorts of things that made The Authority such an interesting read.  It often left you with questions about how things should be handled in the real world, and about why other comic heroes don't handle things the same way.  But, the fact is that both the Civil War and Identity Crisis situations are very much like real life.  Like the heroes, we are just fumbling through our decisions, trying to do the right thing, the best we can.  We are, it seems, just making this up as we go along – not a bad parallel.” 

We make immoral decisions in support of the greater good all the time.  Often, they’re fairly inconsequential decisions, but still.  Literature affords us the opportunity to examine these situations removed from our own lives, thus mitigating our bias.  Hooray for books. 

Merin writes, “Time for three separate thought experiments. You ask me to place myself in the position of someone, set up in a certain environment/situation, and then explain what I would do.  First, I am Tony Stark. Wealthy beyond reason, powerful, and a hero who fancies himself something of a modern day knight. The premise is that as Stark I ‘know’ that not supporting the Superhuman Registration Act means war between costumed heroes and the US government, and that the heroes will lose. The further condition given is that the SHRA is the only way to prevent this because the public is dead set against vigilantism. So my choices as Stark are to either back the SHRA and ‘keep the culture of heroism alive’ or stand against the country I serve.

I can't do this one. There are too many absolutes that simply are not absolutes.  For one, no SHRA would not necessarily mean armed aggression between heroes and the government. Many other options could be had – extending the MRA to all superhumans, for example, would be a better solution than the SHRA. The MRA doesn't force mutants to choose between government service or jail. It simply forces them to be on a government list so they can be tracked (bad enough, but better than this.). Superheroes could be outlawed, but allow them to join regular law enforcement of their choice and be able to utilize their powers, or retire if they choose. 

This gets into tricky territory.  The whole idea of the Mutant Registration Act remains flawed in that it focuses on characters born with their powers.  Someone who acquired them through a happy accident – radioactive spider bite, for example – doesn’t qualify, despite the similarity of their abilities.  And, while the idea of allowing someone to retire makes sense for certain characters – those with no actual powers – it proves difficult when dealing with people that are living weapons.  I’m not saying that retirement isn’t an option – and one wonders when the characters will be allowed to retire, if at all, in the current system – but I have a feeling the Marvel Universe’s government would prefer to enlist them, rather than allow them to go free. 

“The bill could go before Congress and a concerted effort of peaceful protests by the superheroes could be undertaken – Iron Man could have joined Captain America and other heroes in a costumed sit-in, allowing themselves to be arrested for civil disobedience, and when the super-villains start to overrun things the public and the government would quickly concede some points to get the help of the heroes once more.” 

Sit-ins?  Remember, we’re talking about characters that regularly use violence to solve problems. 

“New laws requiring licensing of superhumans by a trusted superhuman agency (the Fantastic Four, for example) where the FF keep track of the heroes, know their true identities, and can help with the apprehension and rehabilitation of any ‘heroes’ who break the law and cause more problems than they solve. The SHRA wasn't the only, let alone the best, solution – it was a controversial one that caused conflict for the purpose of action-packed storytelling.” 

Keep in mind that Stark and company only have limited influence on the government.  The SRA could’ve just as easily passed, regardless of their protests.  Don’t blame Marvel for the actions of its characters.  I know that sounds strange, but consider the work independently of its creators and it makes more sense. 

“For a second, I do not believe the public had turned against vigilantism, and I know the vigilantism issue is a red-herring.  For a third, the vast majority of superheroes are NOT serving their country – if they were, then joining SHIELD wouldn't be a worry. They were protecting innocents, regardless of their country's current political leaders or political stances – they were outside of government and politics, and that is probably the best reason for them to stay unregulated.” 

If things like the Stamford incident kept happening, there’s no way they could ever stay unregulated.  You’re talking about a culture of do-gooders with no certification or verifiable training that feel free to attack – and occasionally, execute – criminals.  Just because they have good intentions and masks doesn’t mean that there aren’t all kinds of problems with that idea.  Marvel was faced with the idea of continuing to rely on suspension of disbelief or accepting that their universe had to answer certain questions. 

“Finally, the ‘culture of heroism’ dies the second they are given badges, matching uniforms, have to follow orders from bureaucrats all against their will. They are not heroes when pressed into service – one of the aspects of heroes is doing so selflessly for the greater good, not because a law says you have to or face life in jail.” 

You don’t know many police officers or firefighters do you?  No one goes into law enforcement or the military because they want to take orders from bureaucrats.  They do it for either personal reasons or a desire to serve their country or community.  And, by your logic, the drafted servicemen that fought in World War II weren’t heroes because they were conscripted. 

“I cannot buy into the conceit of this thought experiment, but let me reiterate it in a way that I believe fits Tony Stark's situation.” 

You can buy into it if you realize that, as Stark did, the government wouldn’t budge on the SRA.  It was that, or superheroes would go away altogether.  He didn’t write the act, and he knew that the heroes would ultimately lose if they decided to stand up to the government.   Either they would go down in a hail of bullets or kill so many that they’d decimate the country’s infrastructure and lose the support of the people they swore to protect.  You may dislike Marvel’s decision to even create the idea, but accept the story for what it is and stop arguing as if we can change it.   

“I will assume that I am Tony Stark, the Invicible Iron Man. The Kree-Skrull War has scared me, and I've seen the public turn against me a number of times. I fear for the planet, for my fellow heroes, and for myself. I have an ego the size of Galactus's World Ship and just enough genius to be dangerous. I often find solutions to problems through something I engineer. None of my fellow heroes seem to want to understand that we need to be united as one force so we can face all threats with no fear, whether they be external threats like an alien invasion or internal threats like public sentiment turning against us. I have made my fortune selling weapons to the US government and, as such, I see government as being capable of responsibly handling dangerous weapons. Despite all of this I am a hero, I believe in right and wrong, and have often risked my life to save others. Now Stamford happens, and public sentiment and political will are backing the forcing of all superhumans to be forced to be agents of the government. What do I do? 

“As Tony Stark, the billionaire with a gigantic company and many, many connections, I go to work to change that perspective. I hire a PR firm, I blanket the airwaves with public service announcements reminding people of all the good that heroes have done, listing several times the

Fantastic Four or the Avengers have saved the planet or the galaxy each week on a rotating basis. I start a PR campaign with other heroes, such as my good friend Captain America, of public works projects to rebuild damage caused by superhuman activity as well as improving run down neighborhoods.” 

Do you think you could Blade, Cable, or Ghost Rider to participate?   

I decide that, since I have the ego of a planet, I can bend the rules for the greater good and commit the immoral act of creating PACs and making campaign contributions to key congressmen and senators as I ask them to propose several bills that will do the following: legally enable superheroes to be law enforcement agents if they choose to abide by the rules set forth in the law; creating special task forces who's purposes are to respond to extraordinary threats and are specially trained to contain situations and prevent innocent civilians from being harmed; appropriations of funding and research for the creation of superior Vault-like facilities and ways to track superhuman criminals released on parole or such. I investigate in detail what happened at Stamford and makes sure the truth is out there, shouted loud and long from every possible venue, until everyone knows that the tragedy was not the fault of heroes but instead the cruel act of a supervillain.” 

What would you do about those heroes that won’t join those task forces you mentioned?  Would they be hunted down and arrested for acting as vigilantes?  Unless you’re a hero with no actual powers, you’re in virtually the same situation – though here, you’ve allowed for powered heroes that simply want to get on with their lives to opt out.  Otherwise, it kinds of sounds like you’re just recasting the SRA. 

“If all that fails (wow, do I suck if it does) then the next step to prevent the SHRA as it exists from going through and getting Congress to instead consider a more appropriate measure for dealing with potential threats like Nitro being enhanced by a greedy corporate war profiteer.  If that fails, I side with the heroes and engage in peaceful protests, letting the government and public learn that they cannot protect themselves without us. This is extreme, about blackmail, but still this is better than starting a war with my fellow heroes – that would mutilate our cause greatly and probably cause untold damage and injury.” 

I think sales would probably drop off a bit if all of the costumed heroes conducted rallies and sit-ins.  We are talking about violent characters, here. 

“This is all assuming, of course, that as Stark I don't have another agenda – i.e. creating a single entity under which all superhumans are enlisted and being the head of that entity with near carte blanche power instilled in me by the government. Or going “neener neener neener” to the rest of the Illuminati, especially Sub Mariner, after they disregarded and humiliated me. Or that I am jealous of Captain America's level of respect and admiration, and want to both discredit him while building myself up as the number one hero.” 

I don’t deny Stark’s ulterior motives.  But, after Stamford, the status quo couldn’t remain. 

“Now I'm in the Justice League. Since I'm not told I'm a specific member with dramatic emotional attachment to the situation (like Elongated Man or The Flash) I'll assume I'm a new hero on the team named Star.” 

Welcome to the team, Star.  

“Dr. Light has done his deed and swears he'll do it again. I've been told that super-villains often escape imprisonment and some of the others are antsy about Light going after their loved ones. Zatanna and the others want to not only erase Light's memory of the rape but to also alter his very mind and personality through invasive magic.  I vote against it. Right there, I say there needs to be a better solution – better defenses and security for our loved ones, better ways to hide our identities from villains, more improved ways to contain the super-villains themselves. Light must pay for his crimes in a court of law or else we as heroes stand for nothing but our own selfish reasons. I apologize to Ralph but I cannot side with such activity. If the League votes for the lobotomy, I start to strongly consider quitting as this is not what heroes do.” 

I wouldn’t necessarily have agreed with the team at that point.  But, I’m removed from the situation as a reader.  Given the rather emotional state of things, their reaction is somewhat understandable, if morally questionable. 

“When Batman appears, tries to stop them, and they discuss wiping his mind – the mind of an ally – if I do not see a possibility of me saving Batman myself and fleeing with him, I quit then and there and tell the ‘heroes’ that they should be ashamed to use the word Justice in the name of the team. Depending on how bad things are, I might attempt to bring in the ‘heroes’ who perpetrated such evil acts.  In any case, Kyle and Wally were right to be disgusted.” 

With the Identity Crisis thing, I’m more sympathetic to your position.  The DC heroes generally defeat criminals and leave them for the police.  They rarely hand down sentences like that.  The government in the DC Universe also tolerates and even endorses superheroes to a degree that the Marvel Universe’s does not.  In that respect, the government often relies on the DC heroes as de facto law enforcement officers, with varying degrees of recognition (I realize Batman’s not always on the right side of the law).  And, just as police officers don’t sentence criminals to jail or the electric chair, neither should the Justice League have sentenced anyone to brain damage. 

“Ugh, now I'm Frank Castle.” 

Come on – it would be cool for a couple of days. 

“Okay, I lost my family, have a hard-on for vengeance against the mob, say that I want to protect others from suffering as I have, yada yada yada. Somehow I believe that all my killing is justified by the fact that I only kill the worst criminals – you know, like murderers…like I am…you know, those whose flagrant disregard for the law and public safety make the top of the wanted lists…like I am…no, cannot handle sheer contradiction that is me, must stop thinking about it or I must kill myself…or at least anyone who tries to question my rationale and motivations!” 

Granted, Frank Castle is a criminal in every sense of the word.  But, unlike those he murders, he doesn’t wantonly prey on the innocent.  I’m not going to argue that what he does is moral and right, but I wouldn’t put him in quite the same league as the people he kills. 

“Where was I…oh, yes, I was in Vietnam, so being sent into a country where the people didn't want me to save them and then being unable to save them from themselves has caused me to think its best just to shoot people and problem solved. Despite the fact that the mob killing my family and trying to kill me hasn't stopped me from fighting them, and despite the fact that different factions of criminal gangs and organized crime often threaten and kill one another, I somehow believe my individual actions of killing with guns will scare the crime out of criminals.” 

If that worked, there would be no ongoing Punisher titles.  I think he just sees no alternative for career murderers and feels content to just kill them until he dies. 

“Um, I'm not seeing what I am supposed to be experimenting on here – that my vigilante sense of justice is acceptable?” 

It’s not acceptable, but his intentions are ultimately noble.  It’s his methods that are unacceptable – at least, outside of fiction. 

“That I'm schizophrenic enough to believe that I am someone making the world a better place by killing? That I am somehow better than those I kill?” 

Castle probably saves a few lives for every one he takes.  Ultimately, he is better than the people he kills.  But, that still doesn’t give him leverage to act as judge, jury, and executioner.  There are too many variables involved. 

“I can't do it. If I had any shred of conscience or guilt I wouldn't be able to live with my actions. The only way I can see myself as any different from the men who killed my family is if I am insane. Every man I kill was someone's brother, son, father, boyfriend, husband, and friend and, as such, every death I cause has a profoundly negative effect on other innocents, causing them to suffer just like me.” 

By that logic, we can never kill bad people for any reason.  If I follow your reasoning, not only does the death penalty end, but cops and soldiers can’t shoot back for fear of upsetting the friends and relations of their targets.  The Punisher’s actions are wrong for a bunch of reasons, but not because everyone has friends and family to think about.  

“That's it – I'm the monster I am trying to stop. Suicide is the only answer.” 

Did the Punisher ever do himself in?  I remember he came back as an angel or something ridiculous like that, but I can’t find how he died anywhere on the web.   

“I'd like to point out that all three of these, on some level, requires the person engaging in the thought experiment to put themselves into a biased, emotional situation. Rational decisions cannot be made well in biased, emotional situations. Most people would say a killer should be arrested, put on trial, and if found guilty, the appropriate punishment should be upheld. Many of those people would suddenly turn around and say ‘lynch mob’ and ‘kill him immediately’ if a killer killed a loved one.” 

The human factor changes everything.  That’s it for this week, guys.  Thanks to Jeol and Merin for their thoughtful letters.  And, thanks to all of you for reading, and remember: comics will still be there long after she’s gone. 

Spinner Rack

By Ben Johnson and Kurt Amacker  

Ben: This week the JLA finally announces its new line-up. I applaud DC’s bold move of buying the rights to Letterface.

Kurt: How many months has it been?  I’m kind of glad I dropped that book. 

DARK HORSE COMICS 

Buffy The Vampire Slayer #2 $2.99

Ben: The pacing is notably different than the show, but the tone is spot on. Good times. 

Old Boy Vol 5 TP (MR) $12.95 

Secret #3 (of 4) $2.99

Ben: One of the better horror titles going…. So far. 

DC COMICS 

52 Week #48 $2.50

Ben: The count-up to the countdown to Countdown has begun. Nothing will ever be the same again.

Kurt: And it will be – get this – backwards! 

Absolute Batman The Long Halloween HC $75.00

Kurt: Well, I didn’t really need to pay the light bill this month. 

All New Atom #10 $2.99 

American Splendor Another Day TP (MR) $14.99 

American Virgin #13 (MR) $2.99

Ben: What a waste of an interesting premise.

Kurt: I dig it.  The story’s slow, but there’s definitely more coming. 

Batman Detective TP $14.99

Kurt: Well, that doesn’t tell me much. 

Cipher Vol 7 $9.99 

Danger Girl Body Shots #1 (of 4) $2.99

Kurt: And this sounds like porn. 

Detective Comics #831 $2.99

Ben: It’s safe to come out again, Dini is back. 

Jack Of Fables #9 (MR) $2.99 

Jonah Hex #18 $2.99 

Jonah Hex Vol 2 Guns Of Vengeance TP $12.99 

Justice League of America CVR A #7 $3.50 

Justice League of America CVR B #7 $3.50 

Justice League of America VAR Ed #7 $3.50

Kurt: If you buy more than one, I hate you. 

Justice League Unlimited #32 $2.25 

Looney Tunes #149 $2.25

Ben: The countdown to #150 begins here. Who will live? Who will die? The Looneyverse will never be the same again.

Kurt: My bet is that Wyle E. Coyote’s reality-altering TNT blasts have reset the Loonyverse timeline, thus keeping them perpetually young.  This created a temporal rift that explains the sudden disappearance and reappearance of characters, along with their apparent immortality and invulnerability. 

Midnighter #6 $2.99 

Nightmare On Elm Street #7 (MR) $2.99 

Nightwing #131 $2.99 

Scalped #4 (MR) $2.99

Ben: Please read this book.  

Sgt Rock The Prophecy TP $17.99

Ben: And when you’re done Sgt., move directly to the Casbah, regardless of what the Shareef says. 

Showcase Presents Legion of Super-Heroes Vol 1 TP $16.99 

Supergirl #16 $2.99 

Supergirl And The Legion of Super Heroes #28 $2.99 

Superman #661 $2.99 

Superman Batman #33 $2.99 

Time Guardian Vol 1 $9.99 

Vs (Versus) Vol 5 $9.99 

Welcome To Tranquility #5 $2.99 

IMAGE COMICS 

Cross Bronx Vol 1 TP (MR) $14.99 

Dynamo 5 VAR CVR New PTG #1 (PP #759) $3.50 

Madman Atomic Comics #1 $2.99

Ben: Can I get a hell yes? 

Spawn Collection Vol 3 TP $29.95

Kurt: Spawn is one of those titles that I wouldn’t mind reading, but only in fat, relatively inexpensive collections like this. 

Unusual Suspects Original GN $12.99 

MARVEL COMICS 

Alpha Flight Classic Vol 1 TP $24.99 

Annihilation Heralds of Galactus Silver Surfer Firelord $3.99 

Avengers Initiative #1 CWI $2.99 

Dark Tower Gunslinger Born #3 (of 7) $3.99 

Dark Tower Gunslinger Born Jae Lee Sketch VAR #3 (of 7) $3.99

Ben: This is turning into one of the greatest achievements the world of comics has ever seen, Thankee sai David for not screwing it up. 

Dark Tower Gunslinger Born Yu VAR #3 (of 7) $3.99

Ben: Putting a cover by anyone other than Jae Lee on this book is like trying to sell a box of chocolates by pooping on it. 

Essential Spider-Man Vol 8 TP $16.99  

Fallen Son Death of Captain America Wolverine  $2.99 

Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #19 $2.99

Ben: The saga of evil Uncle Ben continues…. To be one of the worst ideas Peter David has ever had.

Kurt: I read about this on Wikipedia and I still can’t make sense of it. 

Ghost Rider Trail Of Tears #3 (of 6) $2.99

Ben: If it has Ghost Rider in the title it must suck!! 

Hulk And Power Pack #2 (of 4) $2.99 

Immortal Iron Fist #4 $2.99

Ben: Dear Mr. Brubaker, do you want to go out with me? __Yes __No

Kurt: You’re gay for him too, eh? 

Incredible Hulk #105 $2.99 

Iron Man Hypervelocity #4 (Of 6) $2.99 

Irredeemable Ant-Man #7 $2.99 

Marvel Adventures Spider-Man #26 $2.99 

Marvel Zombies Army of Darkness #2 (Of 5) $2.99

Ben: The first issue was resoundingly mediocre. I know I’m going to buy the entire set, so I hope it can get turned around.

Kurt: I gave up on the Army of Darkness comics after a couple of years.  I really wanted to like them, but I just couldn’t. 

Ms Marvel #14 CWI $2.99 

New Excalibur #18 $2.99 

Omega Flight #1 CWI (of 5) $2.99

Most Totally Rad and Awesome Real Solicitation of The Week: From the pages of CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE comes Canada’s newest super hero team! But this is not your father’s FLIGHT. Bold and daring, OMEGA FLIGHT is the best 5-issue series you’ll EVER read.

Kurt: I bet I could find a better one if you gave me time. 

Ptolus City By The Spire #6 (of 6) $2.99 

Punisher #46 (MR) $2.99

Kurt: Mob wives gone wild.  This has kicked ass. 

Runaways #25 $2.99

Ben: Please prove me wrong, Joss. 

Spider-Girl Vol 8 Duty Calls Digest TP $7.99 

Spider-Man Family #2 $4.99 

Thunderbolts Presents Zemo Born Better #3 (of 4) $2.99 

Ultimate Marvel Flip Magazine #24 $4.99 

Ultimate Spider-Man Clone Saga Premiere HC $29.99

Ben: I know it isn’t cool to like Bendis, and it was never cool to like the Clone Saga, but I am definitely not cool so I’m going to say it – this was totally kick ass! 

Ultimate Tales Flip Magazine #24 $4.99 

Wolverine Origins Vol 1 Born In Blood TP $13.99

Kurt: Get the first trade of the Wolverine series that I keep defending.  This book is fantastic.  It’s a long-form story more akin to a Vertigo title that finally opens the doors on Wolverine’s past – we hope.  

Questions? Comments? Let us know what you think at comicscape@mania.com. 
 

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Comments/Responses
1 2 > >>
SinisterPryde • Apr 04, 2007, 03:18am •
Kurt, Frank Castle's suicide was mentioned in the first issue of the 4th series.

The thing about Civil War that never seems to be brought up is a What if... scenario. What if heroes were outlawed. What if they did stand down. Law and order is given back to the police. Galactus comes. Heroes can't do anything. So, what happens then? Like the SHRA or hate it, there are too many variables to say accurately whether or not it is any good.

I have to say though, love it or hate it, Civil War is probably the best thing a comic book company has done in a while. Disagree? When was the last time there was this much discussion over a series or event?

nax37 • Apr 04, 2007, 06:50am •
People keep saying that the SHRA forces you to work for Shield or go to jail, but that's not how it works. If you want to be a hero, you have to work for Shield. You can choice to not use your powers and not go to jail. The only case I can think of where it seemed someone was told "Join SHIELD or go to jail." was Might Avengers, when Iron Man "recruited" Ares, but I always saw that as a lie on Iron Man's part to manipulate Ares into joining.

evilron • Apr 04, 2007, 07:02am •
As Ben said the Ultimate clone saga did indeed kick ass, and if Bendis wrote everything as well as he writes USP I'd stil be reading the Avengers.

albrown • Apr 04, 2007, 07:42am •
Kurt, I read the whole Wolverine: Origins series because you told me to, and it was lame. I'm never listening to you again.

I'm hella pissed that they're putting out the Clone Saga in HC first, because now I have to wait even longer to read the stupid thing.

smegforbrain • Apr 04, 2007, 08:24am •
"People keep saying that the SHRA forces you to work for Shield or go to jail, but that's not how it works."

And yet, I've read somebody, somewhere, from Marvel saying it's basically that. Granted, I'll be hard pressed to ever find that article again, since I've read so much about Civil War and the SHRA in the past few months.

But I certainly don't recall there being anything out there to indicate that this won't be the case.

Merin • Apr 04, 2007, 10:15am •
Frontline. Check out what happened to Wonder Man.

New Avengers. When the capekillers attacked Luke Cage in his apt. All he was doing was sitting in his apartment. They arrested him because he hadn't signed up by the deadline.

Arachne and Shroud were trying to flee the country when they were attacked. They weren't super-heroing.

The SHRA REQUIRES all powered people to become SHIELD agents. Read your issues of Civil War again. It is forced government service for life, and it is creating a caste system. It is WRONG.
Regulation and control of super-beings aside, the SHRA is WRONG.


And Kurt - the "task forces" I was discussing were government organized and could consistant of non-powered people, i.e. NO ONE forced into service. I have LESS problem with even something like Freedom Force, as horrendous as that idea is, because it gives those enlisted a choice (stay in jail or help enforce the MRA - er, wait, no, this is basically what the heroes became in Civil War - ok, distinction, criminals arrested for crimes other than being born or bitten by a spider get a choice)

Two more things:

Punisher is not a cop or a solider defending himself or his own when he shoots at criminals - the Punisher is acting as judge, jury and executioner and hunting down people. Big difference between societally sanctioned self-defense + law-enforcement and what Castle does. If you haven't checked it out, go see the part of my Blog in response to Means and Ends where I discuss justice. Castle is doing the ancient world style of justice, the eye for an eye crap that never ends. Police officers involved in a shoot-out, and even jails executing the death penalty (which I am 100% against) are acting as a society for the betterment of society, not as an individual acting out of vengeance.

Finally, again about police-officers, soldiers and fire-fighters. The vast majority of them CHOOSE this lifestyle. They choose to be self-sacrificing of their health, safety and time for the greater good - that's a crucial difference. Were the drafted soldiers in Vietnam heroes? I'd argue no, they weren't, save maybe to each other when they defended themselves while being placed in an immoral and untenable situation - that doesn't make them villains, though. Same with our soldiers in Iraq - they are not heroes, even though they enlisted, save those WHO enlisted specifically because we WERE at war, especially those who gave up somethinig (Pat Tillman) to do so, and who believed the lies of the US administration and believed they were defending their homes and families.
WW2 is such a mixed bag as well - you have to know more history than "we stopped fascism" and realized several points, such as that we waited too long to enter, that Russia would have defeated Germany all on its own, that we carpet bombed cities full of civilians and dropped two a-bombs on cities as well - none of that is very heroic as a civilization, but when you get down to individuals - those who enlisted to fight the war, yes, they were heroes. Again I have a problem with those who are forced to fight or be thrown in jail as being considered heroic. There has to be a conscious act for it to be heroism, and selfishly wanting to stay out of prison isn't it.

nax37 • Apr 04, 2007, 12:13pm •
Actually, if I remember correctly, didn't the blackmail Wonderman with threats of tax evasion charges or something to get him to work for SHIELD. As for Luke Cage, he was a high profile hero who was unregistered at the moment being unregistered became illegal. They arrested him for not registering, not for refusing to work for SHIELD. I actually took the time to go find an article where Marvel states that all super powered people are not forced to be SHIELD agents or go to jail.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=103544

Q: So, what are the specifics of the SHRA? What organization should it be compared to?

TB: The Superhuman Registration Act isn’t an organization, it’s a Federal Law. It requires anybody possessing superhuman abilities to register themselves and those abilities with duly-appointed agents of the government. Additionally, if an individual intends to use those super-normal abilities as an independent peace officer, they must qualify on a training evaluation, be licensed and submit to some level of oversight in terms of their activities. The closest equivalent, although it’s not quite the same thing, is gun legislation. If you want to own a firearm in this country, you need to register that weapon. If you want to use that weapon and carry it, as a private detective or a bodyguard or in any other legal way, you need to be licensed and cleared on a firing range, demonstrating that you have the necessary knowledge, skill and responsibility to use that firearm responsibly. And if you discharge that weapon outside of an authorized firing range, or in the course of one of those jobs, there’s going to be paperwork that needs to be filled out.



smegforbrain • Apr 04, 2007, 02:07pm •
"Marvel states that all super powered people are not forced to be SHIELD agents or go to jail. "

Actually, that only says if they intend to *use* those powers. It says nothing about if you decide not to use your powers after registering.

But, Woman Man is a great example: he was blackmailed into doing what SHIELD wanted after registering, and there's nothing to indicate that it won't happen to others.

Arachne isn't quite as good of an example, since she helped the other guy escape. Still, they weren't out 'superheroing', they were just 'guilty' of not registering, same as Cage.

Quite honestly, I find the comparison to gun legislation as ridiculous, since owning a gun is a choice. Having super powers, generally, isn't a choice. And the way this is being treated so far, Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee would have to register under the SHRA.

nax37 • Apr 04, 2007, 02:21pm •
"And the way this is being treated so far, Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee would have to register under the SHRA."

This made me think of a possibly funny scene. A registration desk with lines of people who think they have powers. Think about it, once this law was passed, there had to be tons of people who tried to register. A guy wearing overalls and a hardhat shows up telling the suit behind the desk that he shovels well and wants to register. I wonder what the penalty is for falsely claiming to be a super hero.

lister • Apr 04, 2007, 02:50pm •
So every time the Sentinel uses his powers, he's going to be filling out paperwork?

What if you mean well and go ahead and register. But you cannot control your powers well because you are young like a Power Pack kid or you have unpredicatble powers like Speedball used to have. What happens to you then? Are you taken away from your parents and held in Space Gitmo? Are you trained with taxpayer dollars? How much funding can be used to train any one individual? What if they never get a good grip on their powers? Are they condemned to incarceration until they die?

Let's say you cannot control your powers but you are allowed to live a normal life as long as you never use them. Are there Good Samaritan exceptions? If you have healing abilities but have no control over them, are you allowed to help a gunshot victim?

It's just an endless series of questions even when all I want to see is Hulk Smash.

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